The discussion about dialect versus standard English prompts me to
suggest that there are some resources that may shed some light on some
of the issues raised in the submissions. These can be found on the
Center for Applied Linguistics Web site, www.cal.org. In the "search"
icon, plug in Ebonics and it will take you to the resources. You might
want to start with http://www.cal.org/topics/dialects/aae.html.

Dora Johnson
Program Associate
Center for Applied Linguistics
4646 40th Street, NW
Washington, DC  20016-1859
Telephone: 202-362-0700
Fax: 202-363-7204
E-mail: dora at cal.org
Web site: www.cal.org
 

-----Original Message-----
From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of
povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:40 AM
To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
Subject: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 2, Issue 25

Send PovertyRaceWomen mailing list submissions to
	povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
	povertyracewomen-owner at nifl.gov

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of PovertyRaceWomen digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. [PovertyRaceWomen 149] Re: dialect and standard English
      (Jenny Horsman)
   2. [PovertyRaceWomen 150] Re: dialect and standard English
      (Andrea Wilder)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:26:50 -0500
From: "Jenny Horsman" <jenny at jennyhorsman.com>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 149] Re: dialect and standard English
To: "'The Poverty, Race,	Women and Literacy Discussion List'"
	<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <001e01c72a94$98b31cb0$6500a8c0 at userlz9uvn4k3w>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="windows-1250"

Thanks Angela - I was eager to read June Jordan's article but sadly its
not
available in the pdf "due to copyright restrictions" (along with a lot
of
other wonderful sounding articles which I assume must all have been
reprints
- can you give us the full reference of where it was originally
published
I'd love to read it. 

Thanks too for reminding me of the past issues of the Change Agent -
there
are many that have powerful articles for an online course that I am
designing on violence and learning - I love that at least most of each
issue
is available online. 

Jenny


-----Original Message-----
From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Angela Orlando
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:42 PM
To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 145] Re: dialect and standard English

Regarding "dialect" and "standard English"--a provocative and powerful
essay by June Jordan called "White English/Black English: The Politics
of Translation" addresses this dilemma well. The Change Agent reprinted
this in our March 2003 Language and Power issue, page 15. You can get to
the article by downloading the entire PDF (but it's a big file) at
http://www.nelrc.org/changeagent/backissues.htm. There are a couple
of other articles on this dilemma as well in the same issue (page 6 and
7)


Cheers,
Angela Orlando

Angela Orlando
Change Agent Editor
World Education
44 Farnsworth Street
Boston, MA  02210

tel: 617-482-9485
fax: 617-482-0617
email: aorlando at worlded.org

Check out The Change Agent online at: 
www.nelrc.org/changeagent



>>> <povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov> 12/27/2006 10:57 AM >>>

Send PovertyRaceWomen mailing list submissions to
	povertyracewomen at nifl.gov 

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov 

You can reach the person managing the list at
	povertyracewomen-owner at nifl.gov 

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of PovertyRaceWomen digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. [PovertyRaceWomen 142]  gender differences in pay and dialect
      (Burkett, Barry)
   2. [PovertyRaceWomen 143] Re: gender differences in pay and
      dialect (andreawilder at comcast.net)
   3. [PovertyRaceWomen 144] Re: dialect (Jackson, Wendy P.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:41:47 -0500
From: "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 142]  gender differences in pay and dialect
To: "The Poverty, Race,	Women and Literacy Discussion List"
	<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Message-ID:
	
<5B5DF9F227918548AD5FF668A2E84EBC22E6B1 at ED181X1.franklin.ketsds.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Maybe this is jsut the man in me talking, but what I find discouraging
and disheartening is that some people are "less" professional than
others; i.e. Lawyers vs. Professional Teachers, Teachers vs. Bus
Drivers... or in my case "Certified" personnell vs. "Classified"
personnell.
 
As the reporter was eluding to, some women do choose to make less, and
some women strive to make more, as do men.  Maybe another issue is that
some people are more firm at vocalizing what they want, along with being
more insistant that they get it.
 
As far as dialect is concerned instead of using the term "Standard"
English I know many practitioners use the term of "Business" English. 
But similar to what Andrea said in her previous posting, what is the
goal of the teacher, to reinforce miscues or correct.  If one is able to
teach "Standard" and the student owns it, the student will effectively
know two languges, one of their folk and one of business, it is
empowering to know both.  Such as me being college educated, I grew up
in varied urban settings, and more recently began farming, the
backgorund allows me to work and connect people of many different
backgrounds at their level.  Or like many of Hip-Hop's nouveau riche,
who compare their business skills to hustlin to make ends meet;
language, in its varied forms, is a powerful tool.
 
Now, how does dialect and sex tie in with pay?  I think that would be
interesting to find out.
 
Does the Newsweek editorial, "My Black Skin Makes My White Coat
Vanish," from April 3, 2006 have anything to add to the discussion? 
Peoples perceptions... pre-conceived notions, etc.? 

Barry Burkett


________________________________

From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder
Sent: Mon 12/25/2006 7:19 PM
To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 141] Re: gender differences in pay



This is discouraging and disheartening.

Andrea


On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Daphne Greenberg wrote:


> I thought that some of you may be interested in the following

article

> found at:

> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th 

> THE NEW GENDER DIVIDE

> Gender Pay Gap, Once Narrowing, Is Stuck in Place

> By DAVID LEONHARDT

> A decade ago, it seemed that men and women with similar

qualifications

> might soon make nearly identical salaries.

> Today, that is far harder to envision.

> And a quote:

> "Nothing happened to the pay gap from the mid-1950s to the late

'70s.

> Then the '80s stood out as a period of sharp increases in women's

pay.

> And it's much less impressive after that."

> - FRANCINE D. BLAU, a Cornell economist, on gender differences in

pay.

>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th 

>

> Daphne Greenberg

> Assistant Professor

> Educational Psych. & Special Ed.

> Georgia State University

> P.O. Box 3979

> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3979

> phone: 404-651-0127

> fax:404-651-4901

> dgreenberg at gsu.edu 

>

> Daphne Greenberg

> Associate Director

> Center for the Study of Adult Literacy

> Georgia State University

> P.O. Box 3977

> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3977

> phone: 404-651-0127

> fax:404-651-4901

> dgreenberg at gsu.edu 

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

>


----------------------------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 


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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:08:52 +0000
From: andreawilder at comcast.net 
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 143] Re: gender differences in pay and
	dialect
To: "The Poverty, Race,	Women and Literacy Discussion List"
	<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Message-ID:
	
<122720060008.21094.4591B993000C143E0000526622058860149D0A0B0407990E0A9D
0B02
0E at comcast.net>
	
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

OK, so I'll have to go over the article more carefully.

Another thing I find disheartening and discouraging (also curious) is 
the lack of outcry (in print) from the husbands of these women, it's
their bottom line that is affected, too.  Let's see, how much of  a
dollar discrepancy in pay would make a  partner sit up and take notice? 
$5,000?  $10,000? How much of a dollar discrepancy would make women
fighting mad?

Andrea
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us>

> Maybe this is jsut the man in me talking, but what I find

discouraging and 

> disheartening is that some people are "less" professional than

others; i.e. 

> Lawyers vs. Professional Teachers, Teachers vs. Bus Drivers... or in

my case 

> "Certified" personnell vs. "Classified" personnell.

>  

> As the reporter was eluding to, some women do choose to make less,

and some 

> women strive to make more, as do men.  Maybe another issue is that

some people 

> are more firm at vocalizing what they want, along with being more

insistant that 

> they get it.

>  

> As far as dialect is concerned instead of using the term "Standard"

English I 

> know many practitioners use the term of "Business" English.  But

similar to what 

> Andrea said in her previous posting, what is the goal of the teacher,

to 

> reinforce miscues or correct.  If one is able to teach "Standard" and

the 

> student owns it, the student will effectively know two languges, one

of their 

> folk and one of business, it is empowering to know both.  Such as me

being 

> college educated, I grew up in varied urban settings, and more

recently began 

> farming, the backgorund allows me to work and connect people of many

different 

> backgrounds at their level.  Or like many of Hip-Hop's nouveau riche,

who 

> compare their business skills to hustlin to make ends meet; language,

in its 

> varied forms, is a powerful tool.

>  

> Now, how does dialect and sex tie in with pay?  I think that would be



> interesting to find out.

>  

> Does the Newsweek editorial, "My Black Skin Makes My White Coat

Vanish," from 

> April 3, 2006 have anything to add to the discussion?  Peoples

perceptions... 

> pre-conceived notions, etc.? 

> 

> Barry Burkett

> 

> 

> ________________________________

> 

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder

> Sent: Mon 12/25/2006 7:19 PM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 141] Re: gender differences in pay

> 

> 

> 

> This is discouraging and disheartening.

> 

> Andrea

> 

> 

> On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Daphne Greenberg wrote:

> 

> > I thought that some of you may be interested in the following

article

> > found at:

> > http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th 

> > THE NEW GENDER DIVIDE

> > Gender Pay Gap, Once Narrowing, Is Stuck in Place

> > By DAVID LEONHARDT

> > A decade ago, it seemed that men and women with similar

qualifications

> > might soon make nearly identical salaries.

> > Today, that is far harder to envision.

> > And a quote:

> > "Nothing happened to the pay gap from the mid-1950s to the late

'70s.

> > Then the '80s stood out as a period of sharp increases in women's

pay.

> > And it's much less impressive after that."

> > - FRANCINE D. BLAU, a Cornell economist, on gender differences in

pay.

> >

> > http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th 

> >

> > Daphne Greenberg

> > Assistant Professor

> > Educational Psych. & Special Ed.

> > Georgia State University

> > P.O. Box 3979

> > Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3979

> > phone: 404-651-0127

> > fax:404-651-4901

> > dgreenberg at gsu.edu 

> >

> > Daphne Greenberg

> > Associate Director

> > Center for the Study of Adult Literacy

> > Georgia State University

> > P.O. Box 3977

> > Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3977

> > phone: 404-651-0127

> > fax:404-651-4901

> > dgreenberg at gsu.edu 

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > National Institute for Literacy

> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

> >

> 

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

> 

> 

> 



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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:06:13 -0500
From: "Jackson, Wendy P." <jacksonwp at roanestate.edu>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 144] Re: dialect
To: <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Message-ID:
	
<C34788CB9D11BC449275FA20E2E871FF073C567A at mailsrv2.rscc.cc.tn.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

This question not only applies to African Americans. I live in East
Tennessee where our Southern dialect is tinged with a left over version
of the Scotts-Irish. I was born here, but grew up in Atlanta. My dialect
is tinged with the slow drawl of Georgia and the East Tennessee brogue.
When I was in college at Berry College in Rome, Ga my English Professor
told us that we had to speak in a manner that was understandable to all.
He was from Connecticut and did not speak southern. The phrase "that dog
won't hunt" meant nothing to him. It was not a matter of what was best,
but what was most widely understood. Among family and friends, I tend to
be very southern in my speech (minus the heavy Georgia drawl of my
sisters who have lived in Georgia all their lives). At work and
professional settings, I try to drop the parts of speech that would make
it difficult to follow. My husband says "warsh" for "wash" and  allowed
to learn reading skills under that rule would affect a great many 
 pronunciations. I try to emphasize not right and wrong or best and
worst, but most widely understood. Correction is required for them to be
best understood outside of their cultural/ethnic group.
 
Just my 2 cents...
Wendy  
 
 
Wendy Jackson
Roane County Adult Education
Roane State Community College
1082 N Gateway Ave.
Rockwood, TN 37854
(865) 376-6013
jacksonwp at roanestate.edu 

________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:07:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 137] Re: dialect
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
        <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <20061224160719.49022.qmail at web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Daphne,

   If indeed it is true that "their dialect is their dialect and is
just as
acceptable as standard english" then their pronunciation needs no
correction.

   I would ask this teacher what her goals are for her students. If her
goal is to bring them "up" to the norms of a culture that is widely
recognized as substandard, then she should let them pronounce words
anyway they like. After all, you wouldn't want to make anyone feel
uncomfortable.
   However, if her goal is to  raise her students' abilities above the
literacy norms of the society in which they have  been conditioned, then
she should correct their every error without remorse.

I cannot believe you are axing this question.

Kearney Lykins




----- Original Message ----
From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>
To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov 
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 10:31:09 AM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 136]  dialect

I was recently asked a question from an adult literacy teacher and I
wondered what folks on this listserv think. She teaches basic decoding
skills to adults who read at about the 3rd grade level. In addition to
a
language experience approach, she also spends quite a bit of time
systematically teaching them how to sound out words. Many of her
African
American students, when reading and sounding out words, read certain
words, the way they speak them. So for example, they read "ask" as
"aks"
and "strawberry" as "skrawberry". Since a portion of her class is
focused on teaching letter-sound correspondences and applying it to
decoding new and unknown words should she be concerned about the way
they read those words? She says that during nondecoding time, she is
not
concerned, because their dialect is their dialect and is just as
acceptable as standard english. However, she wondered if she is
teaching
decoding from a standard english point of view, should she be
correcting
the way they read those words?
What do people think?
Daphne
----------------------------------------------------
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Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:48:02 -0600
From: "Catherine B. King" <cb.king at verizon.net>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 138] Re: dialect
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
        <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <001001c7277b$4810cdf0$cad2193f at YOUR85A8F7B8EC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
        reply-type=original

Hello Daphne:

This comes up in my classes frequently--where my teachers are "caught"
between correcting someone's treasured tradition (in how they express
themselves, their dialect, etc.) and what we mean by "Standard
English."

The task is to maintain a high regard for their tradition, while
introducing
them into what Jesse Jackson refers to as the "cash language" of our
time so
that they can operate well in it.  It's not a matter of "either or,"
but
rather of knowing both, as if there were actually two different
languages to
learn, and being able to "walk around" (discourse) in either/both at
the
**appropriate** times.  Their other task is to know which is which.

As a teacher we just let them know that this is the general outline of
their
task, and they will then be able to choose to do it--or not.  As
teachers,
we need not make what amounts to moral or qualitative judgments about
someone's treasured dialect (or suggest that they must make such
judgments
about themselves)--the language that most in their home environment
still
speak, and will continue to speak.

It's sort of like learning how to discourse in technical language (in
any
theoretical or professional field) after having learned "common"
language
and the meaning of its terms.   That is, using common meaning and its
terms
is one thing, and is appropriate when spoken at home or at the grocery
store, etc.; however, using technical meaning is quite another; and
when we
discourse in our field, or in a specific technical-theoretical field,
we are
very specific and defined about what we mean; and we use completely
different meanings for sometimes-similar terms that, to the grocery
clerk,
would come off as sounding completely "weird and foggy."

Like we would not want to replace common with theoretical discourse in
the
grocery store (how awful would THAT be), we often do not want to
suggest
replacing a learner's dialect with what we mean by "Standard English."
Trying to do so puts the learner in the position of having to choose
between
what is "better" (presumably Standard English) all of the time, and
what is
"worse" (presumably, their own dialect and "home language) all of the
time.
And there is often some shame involved--which has been a topic here on
this
forum recently.   This situation is entirely UNnecessary.

On the other hand, there is a great and necessary value to standards,
and of
course to Standard English or any other written language--it's becoming
a
worldwide language.

This is not all there is to it; however, if a learner is going to
operate in
the "cash language," i.e., work in an office, etc., they need to
**also**
know how to speak "Roman as the Roman's do."   <--we must make it what
it
is--to THEIR advantage to do so.  We add a differentiation, and not an
either/or choice tinged with some sort of arrogance associated with
"white"
standard English.

In brief, one way is to treat Standard English as if it were another
language altogether, which in some cases and sense, it is.

I hope this helps,

Catherine B. King
Adjunct Instructor
Department of Education
National University
San Diego, CA



----- Original Message -----
From: "Daphne Greenberg" <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>
To: <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 9:31 AM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 136] dialect



>I was recently asked a question from an adult literacy teacher and I

> wondered what folks on this listserv think. She teaches basic

decoding

> skills to adults who read at about the 3rd grade level. In addition

to a

> language experience approach, she also spends quite a bit of time

> systematically teaching them how to sound out words. Many of her

African

> American students, when reading and sounding out words, read certain

> words, the way they speak them. So for example, they read "ask" as

"aks"

> and "strawberry" as "skrawberry". Since a portion of her class is

> focused on teaching letter-sound correspondences and applying it to

> decoding new and unknown words should she be concerned about the way

> they read those words? She says that during nondecoding time, she is

not

> concerned, because their dialect is their dialect and is just as

> acceptable as standard english. However, she wondered if she is

teaching

> decoding from a standard english point of view, should she be

correcting

> the way they read those words?

> What do people think?

> Daphne

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

>





------------------------------

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:32:35 -0500
From: Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 150] Re: dialect and standard English
To: "The Poverty, Race,	Women and Literacy Discussion List"
	<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <9fe41e0ca4b43217ab8a785485e6c7ff at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

I think it's important for everyone to understand that they speak in  
"dialect."  I have certainly been reminded enough n the past that I  
speak in a "dialect."

Like so much (all?) in adult literacy, this is a question of power.   
The dialect I speak is closer in pronunciation to Standard English  
speech than many adult learners, I am guessing.

There is also another  part to the reading question--it seems to me  
that student dialect might change as  the student learns to attend more

to reading words on the page.  This has happened to me, when I see for  
the first time  a different language when I have been only speaking it  
previously.  I have an Ah-ha!  feeling--this is how the speech is  
recorded.

Andrea
On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:26 AM, Jenny Horsman wrote:


> Thanks Angela - I was eager to read June Jordan's article but sadly  

> its not

> available in the pdf "due to copyright restrictions" (along with a lot



> of

> other wonderful sounding articles which I assume must all have been  

> reprints

> - can you give us the full reference of where it was originally  

> published

> I'd love to read it.

>

> Thanks too for reminding me of the past issues of the Change Agent -  

> there

> are many that have powerful articles for an online course that I am

> designing on violence and learning - I love that at least most of each



> issue

> is available online.

>

> Jenny

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Angela Orlando

> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:42 PM

> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 145] Re: dialect and standard English

>

> Regarding "dialect" and "standard English"--a provocative and powerful

> essay by June Jordan called "White English/Black English: The Politics

> of Translation" addresses this dilemma well. The Change Agent

reprinted

> this in our March 2003 Language and Power issue, page 15. You can get



> to

> the article by downloading the entire PDF (but it's a big file) at

> http://www.nelrc.org/changeagent/backissues.htm. There are a couple

> of other articles on this dilemma as well in the same issue (page 6

and

> 7)

>

>

> Cheers,

> Angela Orlando

>

> Angela Orlando

> Change Agent Editor

> World Education

> 44 Farnsworth Street

> Boston, MA  02210

>

> tel: 617-482-9485

> fax: 617-482-0617

> email: aorlando at worlded.org

>

> Check out The Change Agent online at:

> www.nelrc.org/changeagent

>

>

>>>> <povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov> 12/27/2006 10:57 AM >>>

> Send PovertyRaceWomen mailing list submissions to

> 	povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

>

> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

> 	http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

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>

> You can reach the person managing the list at

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>

> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

> than "Re: Contents of PovertyRaceWomen digest..."

>

>

> Today's Topics:

>

>    1. [PovertyRaceWomen 142]  gender differences in pay and dialect

>       (Burkett, Barry)

>    2. [PovertyRaceWomen 143] Re: gender differences in pay and

>       dialect (andreawilder at comcast.net)

>    3. [PovertyRaceWomen 144] Re: dialect (Jackson, Wendy P.)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:41:47 -0500

> From: "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 142]  gender differences in pay and dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race,	Women and Literacy Discussion List"

> 	<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID:

>

<5B5DF9F227918548AD5FF668A2E84EBC22E6B1 at ED181X1.franklin.ketsds.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>

> Maybe this is jsut the man in me talking, but what I find discouraging

> and disheartening is that some people are "less" professional than

> others; i.e. Lawyers vs. Professional Teachers, Teachers vs. Bus

> Drivers... or in my case "Certified" personnell vs. "Classified"

> personnell.

>

> As the reporter was eluding to, some women do choose to make less, and

> some women strive to make more, as do men.  Maybe another issue is

that

> some people are more firm at vocalizing what they want, along with  

> being

> more insistant that they get it.

>

> As far as dialect is concerned instead of using the term "Standard"

> English I know many practitioners use the term of "Business" English.

> But similar to what Andrea said in her previous posting, what is the

> goal of the teacher, to reinforce miscues or correct.  If one is able



> to

> teach "Standard" and the student owns it, the student will effectively

> know two languges, one of their folk and one of business, it is

> empowering to know both.  Such as me being college educated, I grew up

> in varied urban settings, and more recently began farming, the

> backgorund allows me to work and connect people of many different

> backgrounds at their level.  Or like many of Hip-Hop's nouveau riche,

> who compare their business skills to hustlin to make ends meet;

> language, in its varied forms, is a powerful tool.

>

> Now, how does dialect and sex tie in with pay?  I think that would be

> interesting to find out.

>

> Does the Newsweek editorial, "My Black Skin Makes My White Coat

> Vanish," from April 3, 2006 have anything to add to the discussion?

> Peoples perceptions... pre-conceived notions, etc.?

>

> Barry Burkett

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder

> Sent: Mon 12/25/2006 7:19 PM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 141] Re: gender differences in pay

>

>

>

> This is discouraging and disheartening.

>

> Andrea

>

>

> On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Daphne Greenberg wrote:

>

>> I thought that some of you may be interested in the following

> article

>> found at:

>> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th

>> THE NEW GENDER DIVIDE

>> Gender Pay Gap, Once Narrowing, Is Stuck in Place

>> By DAVID LEONHARDT

>> A decade ago, it seemed that men and women with similar

> qualifications

>> might soon make nearly identical salaries.

>> Today, that is far harder to envision.

>> And a quote:

>> "Nothing happened to the pay gap from the mid-1950s to the late

> '70s.

>> Then the '80s stood out as a period of sharp increases in women's

> pay.

>> And it's much less impressive after that."

>> - FRANCINE D. BLAU, a Cornell economist, on gender differences in

> pay.

>>

>> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th

>>

>> Daphne Greenberg

>> Assistant Professor

>> Educational Psych. & Special Ed.

>> Georgia State University

>> P.O. Box 3979

>> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3979

>> phone: 404-651-0127

>> fax:404-651-4901

>> dgreenberg at gsu.edu

>>

>> Daphne Greenberg

>> Associate Director

>> Center for the Study of Adult Literacy

>> Georgia State University

>> P.O. Box 3977

>> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3977

>> phone: 404-651-0127

>> fax:404-651-4901

>> dgreenberg at gsu.edu

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>

>

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>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:08:52 +0000

> From: andreawilder at comcast.net

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 143] Re: gender differences in pay and

> 	dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race,	Women and Literacy Discussion List"

> 	<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID:

> 	

>

<122720060008.21094.4591B993000C143E0000526622058860149D0A0B0407990E0A9 

> D0B02

> 0E at comcast.net>

> 	

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

> OK, so I'll have to go over the article more carefully.

>

> Another thing I find disheartening and discouraging (also curious) is

> the lack of outcry (in print) from the husbands of these women, it's

> their bottom line that is affected, too.  Let's see, how much of  a

> dollar discrepancy in pay would make a  partner sit up and take

notice?

> $5,000?  $10,000? How much of a dollar discrepancy would make women

> fighting mad?

>

> Andrea

>  -------------- Original message ----------------------

> From: "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us>

>> Maybe this is jsut the man in me talking, but what I find

> discouraging and

>> disheartening is that some people are "less" professional than

> others; i.e.

>> Lawyers vs. Professional Teachers, Teachers vs. Bus Drivers... or in

> my case

>> "Certified" personnell vs. "Classified" personnell.

>>

>> As the reporter was eluding to, some women do choose to make less,

> and some

>> women strive to make more, as do men.  Maybe another issue is that

> some people

>> are more firm at vocalizing what they want, along with being more

> insistant that

>> they get it.

>>

>> As far as dialect is concerned instead of using the term "Standard"

> English I

>> know many practitioners use the term of "Business" English.  But

> similar to what

>> Andrea said in her previous posting, what is the goal of the teacher,

> to

>> reinforce miscues or correct.  If one is able to teach "Standard" and

> the

>> student owns it, the student will effectively know two languges, one

> of their

>> folk and one of business, it is empowering to know both.  Such as me

> being

>> college educated, I grew up in varied urban settings, and more

> recently began

>> farming, the backgorund allows me to work and connect people of many

> different

>> backgrounds at their level.  Or like many of Hip-Hop's nouveau riche,

> who

>> compare their business skills to hustlin to make ends meet; language,

> in its

>> varied forms, is a powerful tool.

>>

>> Now, how does dialect and sex tie in with pay?  I think that would be

>

>> interesting to find out.

>>

>> Does the Newsweek editorial, "My Black Skin Makes My White Coat

> Vanish," from

>> April 3, 2006 have anything to add to the discussion?  Peoples

> perceptions...

>> pre-conceived notions, etc.?

>>

>> Barry Burkett

>>

>>

>> ________________________________

>>

>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder

>> Sent: Mon 12/25/2006 7:19 PM

>> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 141] Re: gender differences in pay

>>

>>

>>

>> This is discouraging and disheartening.

>>

>> Andrea

>>

>>

>> On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Daphne Greenberg wrote:

>>

>>> I thought that some of you may be interested in the following

> article

>>> found at:

>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th

>>> THE NEW GENDER DIVIDE

>>> Gender Pay Gap, Once Narrowing, Is Stuck in Place

>>> By DAVID LEONHARDT

>>> A decade ago, it seemed that men and women with similar

> qualifications

>>> might soon make nearly identical salaries.

>>> Today, that is far harder to envision.

>>> And a quote:

>>> "Nothing happened to the pay gap from the mid-1950s to the late

> '70s.

>>> Then the '80s stood out as a period of sharp increases in women's

> pay.

>>> And it's much less impressive after that."

>>> - FRANCINE D. BLAU, a Cornell economist, on gender differences in

> pay.

>>>

>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th

>>>

>>> Daphne Greenberg

>>> Assistant Professor

>>> Educational Psych. & Special Ed.

>>> Georgia State University

>>> P.O. Box 3979

>>> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3979

>>> phone: 404-651-0127

>>> fax:404-651-4901

>>> dgreenberg at gsu.edu

>>>

>>> Daphne Greenberg

>>> Associate Director

>>> Center for the Study of Adult Literacy

>>> Georgia State University

>>> P.O. Box 3977

>>> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3977

>>> phone: 404-651-0127

>>> fax:404-651-4901

>>> dgreenberg at gsu.edu

>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>>

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>>

>>

>

>

> -------------- next part --------------

> An embedded message was scrubbed...

> From: "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 142]  gender differences in pay and dialect

> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:59:12 +0000

> Size: 10184

> Url:

> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/povertyracewomen/attachments/20061227/ 

> 242341e4

> /attachment-0001.mht

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:06:13 -0500

> From: "Jackson, Wendy P." <jacksonwp at roanestate.edu>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 144] Re: dialect

> To: <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID:

>

<C34788CB9D11BC449275FA20E2E871FF073C567A at mailsrv2.rscc.cc.tn.us>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>

> This question not only applies to African Americans. I live in East

> Tennessee where our Southern dialect is tinged with a left over

version

> of the Scotts-Irish. I was born here, but grew up in Atlanta. My  

> dialect

> is tinged with the slow drawl of Georgia and the East Tennessee

brogue.

> When I was in college at Berry College in Rome, Ga my English

Professor

> told us that we had to speak in a manner that was understandable to  

> all.

> He was from Connecticut and did not speak southern. The phrase "that  

> dog

> won't hunt" meant nothing to him. It was not a matter of what was

best,

> but what was most widely understood. Among family and friends, I tend



> to

> be very southern in my speech (minus the heavy Georgia drawl of my

> sisters who have lived in Georgia all their lives). At work and

> professional settings, I try to drop the parts of speech that would  

> make

> it difficult to follow. My husband says "warsh" for "wash" and

allowed

> to learn reading skills under that rule would affect a great many

>  pronunciations. I try to emphasize not right and wrong or best and

> worst, but most widely understood. Correction is required for them to



> be

> best understood outside of their cultural/ethnic group.

>

> Just my 2 cents...

> Wendy

>

>

> Wendy Jackson

> Roane County Adult Education

> Roane State Community College

> 1082 N Gateway Ave.

> Rockwood, TN 37854

> (865) 376-6013

> jacksonwp at roanestate.edu

>

> ________________________________

>

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:07:19 -0800 (PST)

> From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 137] Re: dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>         <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <20061224160719.49022.qmail at web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

> Daphne,

>

>    If indeed it is true that "their dialect is their dialect and is

> just as

> acceptable as standard english" then their pronunciation needs no

> correction.

>

>    I would ask this teacher what her goals are for her students. If

her

> goal is to bring them "up" to the norms of a culture that is widely

> recognized as substandard, then she should let them pronounce words

> anyway they like. After all, you wouldn't want to make anyone feel

> uncomfortable.

>    However, if her goal is to  raise her students' abilities above the

> literacy norms of the society in which they have  been conditioned,  

> then

> she should correct their every error without remorse.

>

> I cannot believe you are axing this question.

>

> Kearney Lykins

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 10:31:09 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 136]  dialect

>

> I was recently asked a question from an adult literacy teacher and I

> wondered what folks on this listserv think. She teaches basic decoding

> skills to adults who read at about the 3rd grade level. In addition to

> a

> language experience approach, she also spends quite a bit of time

> systematically teaching them how to sound out words. Many of her

> African

> American students, when reading and sounding out words, read certain

> words, the way they speak them. So for example, they read "ask" as

> "aks"

> and "strawberry" as "skrawberry". Since a portion of her class is

> focused on teaching letter-sound correspondences and applying it to

> decoding new and unknown words should she be concerned about the way

> they read those words? She says that during nondecoding time, she is

> not

> concerned, because their dialect is their dialect and is just as

> acceptable as standard english. However, she wondered if she is

> teaching

> decoding from a standard english point of view, should she be

> correcting

> the way they read those words?

> What do people think?

> Daphne

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

> http://mail.yahoo.com

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>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:48:02 -0600

> From: "Catherine B. King" <cb.king at verizon.net>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 138] Re: dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>         <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <001001c7277b$4810cdf0$cad2193f at YOUR85A8F7B8EC>

> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;

>         reply-type=original

>

> Hello Daphne:

>

> This comes up in my classes frequently--where my teachers are "caught"

> between correcting someone's treasured tradition (in how they express

> themselves, their dialect, etc.) and what we mean by "Standard

> English."

>

> The task is to maintain a high regard for their tradition, while

> introducing

> them into what Jesse Jackson refers to as the "cash language" of our

> time so

> that they can operate well in it.  It's not a matter of "either or,"

> but

> rather of knowing both, as if there were actually two different

> languages to

> learn, and being able to "walk around" (discourse) in either/both at

> the

> **appropriate** times.  Their other task is to know which is which.

>

> As a teacher we just let them know that this is the general outline of

> their

> task, and they will then be able to choose to do it--or not.  As

> teachers,

> we need not make what amounts to moral or qualitative judgments about

> someone's treasured dialect (or suggest that they must make such

> judgments

> about themselves)--the language that most in their home environment

> still

> speak, and will continue to speak.

>

> It's sort of like learning how to discourse in technical language (in

> any

> theoretical or professional field) after having learned "common"

> language

> and the meaning of its terms.   That is, using common meaning and its

> terms

> is one thing, and is appropriate when spoken at home or at the grocery

> store, etc.; however, using technical meaning is quite another; and

> when we

> discourse in our field, or in a specific technical-theoretical field,

> we are

> very specific and defined about what we mean; and we use completely

> different meanings for sometimes-similar terms that, to the grocery

> clerk,

> would come off as sounding completely "weird and foggy."

>

> Like we would not want to replace common with theoretical discourse in

> the

> grocery store (how awful would THAT be), we often do not want to

> suggest

> replacing a learner's dialect with what we mean by "Standard English."

> Trying to do so puts the learner in the position of having to choose

> between

> what is "better" (presumably Standard English) all of the time, and

> what is

> "worse" (presumably, their own dialect and "home language) all of the

> time.

> And there is often some shame involved--which has been a topic here on

> this

> forum recently.   This situation is entirely UNnecessary.

>

> On the other hand, there is a great and necessary value to standards,

> and of

> course to Standard English or any other written language--it's

becoming

> a

> worldwide language.

>

> This is not all there is to it; however, if a learner is going to

> operate in

> the "cash language," i.e., work in an office, etc., they need to

> **also**

> know how to speak "Roman as the Roman's do."   <--we must make it what

> it

> is--to THEIR advantage to do so.  We add a differentiation, and not an

> either/or choice tinged with some sort of arrogance associated with

> "white"

> standard English.

>

> In brief, one way is to treat Standard English as if it were another

> language altogether, which in some cases and sense, it is.

>

> I hope this helps,

>

> Catherine B. King

> Adjunct Instructor

> Department of Education

> National University

> San Diego, CA

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Daphne Greenberg" <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

> To: <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 9:31 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 136] dialect

>

>

>> I was recently asked a question from an adult literacy teacher and I

>> wondered what folks on this listserv think. She teaches basic

> decoding

>> skills to adults who read at about the 3rd grade level. In addition

> to a

>> language experience approach, she also spends quite a bit of time

>> systematically teaching them how to sound out words. Many of her

> African

>> American students, when reading and sounding out words, read certain

>> words, the way they speak them. So for example, they read "ask" as

> "aks"

>> and "strawberry" as "skrawberry". Since a portion of her class is

>> focused on teaching letter-sound correspondences and applying it to

>> decoding new and unknown words should she be concerned about the way

>> they read those words? She says that during nondecoding time, she is

> not

>> concerned, because their dialect is their dialect and is just as

>> acceptable as standard english. However, she wondered if she is

> teaching

>> decoding from a standard english point of view, should she be

> correcting

>> the way they read those words?

>> What do people think?

>> Daphne

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

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