Hello everyone,
Happy 2007,

I always find this sort of discussion interesting,
being from India and having spoken my mother tongue
(Marathi), the local language (Hindi) and English
almost simultaneously. When I came to America, I
realised that whilst I had been exposed to
Americanisms and American accents (thanks to American
literature and Hollywood), 'proper English' thanks to
the British and having done my GCSEs, that was not the
case for my American classmates and friends. I would
get asked questions like, "When did you come over? You
speak real good." It took me some time to understand
the regional variations of accents as well as
expressions; and live with grammatical errors in
spoken English: "You did real good." 

Is it grammar, spelling or speech that we are looking
at? If it is grammar, then again is it spoken grammar
or written? Every language I have had to study and
learn, the argot was for spoken and 'proper' (what
we'd call Wren and Martin grammar, because of the
Enlish grammar book we had to use in India in my time)
English was for written, formal, business
communication. 

Spelling: It still annoys me when the spellcheck dares
tell me that 'colour''behaviour' and 'programme' are
incorrect. 

Argot: I simply adore argot in all the languages I
speak; makes for so much more interesting reading and
conversation. It is even funnier when I hear my
husband who is French translate French argot and
expressions into English.

In my experience, standard English (if there is such a
thing) has a wide range that is acceptable. In that
bracket fall such a beautiful variety of accents,
grammar, argot and expressions that, to me English
really has bloomed wherever it has been planted. To
believe otherwise, is either to not have experienced
the range and beauty, or prefer to not accept that
English is an international language with
international variations.

Have a great year everyone,
Ujwala



--- Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote:


> Daphne--

> 

> What do you do when your students,  or teachers you

> work with speak 

> improperly--grammar for example?  Some are in the

> student position and 

> some are in the teacher position, so your

> relationship with each group 

> is different.  I correct the  students/teachers who

> live in my home 

> whenever I hear something "off," but I am usually

> old enough to be 

> their mother, so I figure I am "allowed."

> 

> Andrea

> 

> On Dec 29, 2006, at 11:36 AM, Daphne Greenberg

> wrote:

> 

> > Mev,

> > In your group read alouds, do you also read aloud

> with them? I was

> > wondering if it would make a difference if you

> modeled reading the 

> > swear

> > words, dialect, slang and whether that could free

> up the group's 

> > comfort

> > in also doing so.

> > I have experience reading out loud with women who

> have very low reading

> > skills and they appreciate hearing me model how

> text is read. We have

> > talked about the various ways of writing, genres,

> and styles. We talk

> > about making the characters coming alive by

> reading their words the way

> > we think they may sound, given what we know about

> the characters (for

> > example, whether they are young or old, from the

> Caribbean or from

> > China, etc., etc).

> > I have run into resistance from teachers who feel

> uncomfortable reading

> > swear words, dialect, slang. In terms of the swear

> words, they don't

> > think that it is "appropriate" to swear, and in

> terms of dialect, they

> > "don't want to reinforce non standard English" I

> have even come across 

> > a

> > copy of the book Push where the teacher crossed

> out all the swear

> > words!!!!!!!!!! I find it harder to convince these

> teachers than I have

> > found it to be convincing students who are

> struggling readers.

> > Daphne

> >

> >>>> "mev at litwomen.org" <mev at litwomen.org> 12/29/06

> 8:18 AM >>>

> > This is an interesting conversation...and I'd like

> to add a different

> > spin to it. I am currently facilitating Women

> Leading Through Reading

> > Discussion Circles with women in Rhode Island [see

> WE LEARN Article:

> > http://www.litwomen.org/news/06nov.pdf] . As women

> in these groups read

> >

> > aloud to each other, I have found 2 things: 1)

> they often will not read

> >

> > aloud any swear words they encounter; and 2) if

> they see  some form of

> > dialect or slang written for a character's

> conversation, they often do

> > not read it aloud that way -- they "translate" it

> into "correct"

> > English and read aloud the "corrected" version!

> This happens more often

> >

> > than not.

> >

> > even though I encourage students to read it the

> way it's written, they

> > clearly have some discomfort in doing this.   I

> find it's not always

> > clear why ... Do they want to demonstrate that

> they "know" this is

> > "improper" English? What level of shame is already

> operative? Do they

> > not want to read for a white woman their street

> language (though I have

> >

> > seen them correct the written word with black

> teachers as well)? When I

> >

> > have asked why they don't read what's written,

> they will often say

> > "because it's wrong" or "we're not supposed to

> talk that way."

> >

> > I would also wonder how many of us truly stick to

> proper English in the

> >

> > classroom? I have found myself in some situations

> where we're having

> > social conversation and my own informal

> terminologies and

> > pronunciations, well, slide.... I have lived in

> several states with

> > varying dialects and accents...as I age, I carry

> and combine pieces of

> > each in a mixed up way  -- some I "call up" as

> needed and others I can

> > no longer discreetly identify! (I'm a language

> chameleon and often take

> >

> > on what I hear, especially in various regions of

> the country, even when

> >

> > it's not my region of origin.) Also, as someone

> mentioned, this brings

> > up an interesting situation when there are English

> language learners

> > also present in the room -- as everyone works to

> "decipher" accents and

> >

> > pronunciations.

> >

> > So, as we have these discussions with our

> students, we may want to have

> >

> > the "values" conversation as well. What do they

> value and why? What do

> > they need (or want) to do to "fit in" -- and how

> do they know when,

> > where and why to do this? What's important to

> "succeed" -- and what

> > does that mean -(when & where & at what)? Success

> could mean in the

> > business world, but it might also mean what they

> need to do to live

> > without threat in their neighborhood or home. 

> This, I think, becomes a

> >

> > gender issue as women will more often care about

> what people think,

> > will consider how to be pleasing, and will know

> (or learn) how to adapt

> >

> > to survive or get what they need/want --

> regardless of their economic

> > situation.

> >

> > Mev Miller

> > WE LEARN

> >

> >

> >

> ----------------------------------------------------

> > National Institute for Literacy

> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription

> settings, please go to 

> >

>

http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

> >

> 

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings,

> please go to

>

http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

> 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com