The words that you cite are words to describe concepts and ideas. If you disagree with the concepts and ideas, then that is great. What I am trying to understand is what specifically you don't like about the idea of, say, conscientization or critical praxis, etc. If you disagree with these ideas and you can specify the reason, then we can have a discussion about pedagogy. If you simple disregard them because they get your goat, then you are silencing a conversation. Also, if you have difficulty understanding what Freire meant by these things, then you can always say: "I ain't sure of what he means by "critical praxis" and many will help define this. Then you can say that you don't like the idea of critical praxis because you don't think that people need to know what forces shape their experience before they engage in activity, or you can say that you like the idea and you agree with it. Again, dismissing terms because they get your goat, or they sound Marxist is silencing a conversation before it starts. The process of silencing by saying that something is Marxist, or Passé, without engaging it is undemocratic. I know that that wasn't your intention, but it is the result. Instead of engaging Freire's pedagogy we are arguing with you about process. 

 

I appreciate that you feel more inclined to Thoreau because of his writing references to things that hit home. At the same time, Freire's work is part of the education field. I think that trying to understand Freire is important just like it would be to understand current anatomy and physiology or calculus if you want to be an engineer. 

 

At the same time, if you don't feel like you need to know or understand Freire to be a good educator that is just fine too. However, as I said before, dismissing him on the grounds that he is a Marxist or his language gets your goat is not constructive or conducive to anything.

 

Andres

 

________________________________

From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 11:45 AM
To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 207] Re: GED programs with apopulareducationa pproach

 

Andres-- 

 

It's the language that is associated with Freire, and that Ditmar used, some of it is quotations, I am sincerely grateful for that. I am also grateful for Ditmar embedding definitions in his text. 

 

But to your point, with or without quotations these word get my goat (obviously): class consciousness, class struggle, conscientisation, critical praxis, codification (which I actually usually do like), and pedagogical praxis. 

 

At one point Freire did go around the bend, my opinion, over in Africa, and started to dictate how his workbooks were to be used. TSK. Someone besides me picked this up, I was just reading along and there it was. 

 

By the way, I have I think a CD of Freire talking at Harvard's Ed School. That's ambiguous, I think it is a CD, I know it is at HGSE. 

 

David Rosen's list of attributes in Freirian/popular education teaching was profoundly human and adapted to a pluralistic American zeitgeist, my opinion. 

 

I understand Thoreau, I live near Walden Pond, I know the New England woods. Of course we have somewhat the same background, and MAYBE those who come from S.America feel more of a kinship with the writing style of Freire. Over to you, Andres. (AND WHERE IS THE SNOW?? I need snow to fully appreciate Thoreau.) 

 

Andrea 







On Jan 8, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Muro, Andres wrote: 

	 

	What language are you referring to? 

	  

	 

	From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder 

	Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:47 AM 

	To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List 

	Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 200] Re: GED programs with a populareducationa pproach 

	  

	Ditmar and others, 

	  

	I must put up my small flag here: I absolutely detest the language used in this educational movement. To me, it seems foreign and laid on with a trowel. Am I for social empowerment? Of course. Am I for social movements which try to being about even a modicum of social justice? Absolutely. 

	  

	Back to the trenches, 

	  

	Andrea 

	  

	On Jan 8, 2007, at 7:33 AM, Muro, Andres wrote: 

		  

		Hi Ujwalla, David, Andrea, Ditmar: 

		  

		We did a project with our students that has strong Freirian elements. This is an ongoing project with migrant students in which they write their own stories and we publish them. to see this project please visit: 

		  

		http://bordersenses.com/memorias 

		  

		While the stories are written in Spanish most of them have been translated. If you want to read the content, please click on each of the books. Also, to understand the theoretical foundation you can read my introduction to both books. They are in English. I kept the introductions very simple without making any references, However, the work is influenced by Freire,Dewey, Giroux, etal. You will see in the intrductions the elements of Freirianism that Ditmar points to. 

		  

		Andres 

		  

		From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of ditmar0906_inossian at netzero.net 

		Sent: Sat 1/6/2007 4:26 PM 

		To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov 

		Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 197] Re: GED programs with a popular educationa pproach 

		 

		  

		Yes, Project Hope's Adult Learners Program uses (or did use) a popular education approach that is distinctly Freireian, and this program was the focus of Lorna's dissertation. For what it's worth, "conscientisation" was the focus of Freire's approach: a process by which a group (not at all about individual empowerment here [think "class struggle"]) becomes aware of their oppression and discovers that they have a popular culture that is both political and social--has a sociopolitical role in history (as Marx understood history). The group learners engage in "critical praxis" or dialogue toward the end of identifying common interests. It's rather like an effort to critique false consciousness through 1) an investigation of the thematic universe (identifying themes); 2) identifying those themes that are "generative"; 3) codification of those generative themes, and 4) dialogue within the cultural circle of learners to interpret those themes (i.e. create meaning). I know this sounds very abstract but one might think of it as a very Marxist-oriented version of the ideology critique that was advanced by the Frankfurt School and later by educational theorists who continue to work in this tradition (e.g. Giroux, Apple, etc.). 

		  

		Freire's goal was social change, not individual empowerment nor individual transformation. In fact, in my own reading of Freire, he didn't even think that individual transformation was possible. In other words, he never intended for his theory to be used as a means for helping learners function within the given social system. One might argue that if you change individuals, you will change society (one person at a time). However, this can be true only from an anthropological view of history (i.e., the driving force behind history is human experience/consciousness). From a structuralist (or Marxist) point of view, the consciousness of the individual makes no difference; it's class consciousness that matters because one's individual consciousness is a product of ideology; individuals become subjects only through their subjection to processes of production (i.e., the reproduction of production, or more commonly, the reproduction of inequality). So basically "popular education" becomes a mechanism for bringing about class struggle. Finally, Freire never specified the end results of pedagogical praxis because the "solution" or product was not known, in fact could not be known--it evolved among/through the people. Social change was then the process of peaceful intervention into the system by initiating dialogue with the "oppressors" to develop alternatives. 

		  

		The philosophical foundations are to be found in Catholic humanism (Catholic Action, Liberation Theology, etc.), orthodox Marxism, and German philosophy (particularly Hegel). Freire also integrated bits of critical theory into his approach, which evolved into his "Movement of Education from the Base" (a take-off on the "Popular Church from the Base" that evolved during the revolutionary period in Latin America). See his two major contributions to adult education theory and practice: Pedagogy of the Oppressed and Education as the Practice of Freedom (both late 1960s). Lorna's dissertation is a marvelous illustration of how one GED program puts these principles into practice. 

		  

		Thanks. --Ditmar 

		  

		C. Ditmar Coffield 

		 

		  

		-- eleonelli at aol.com wrote: 

		David - I think that Project Hope in Dorchester, MA takes a popular  

		education approach in their program. 

		  

		Esther 

		__________________________________ 

		Esther D. Leonelli 

		 

		  

		-----Original Message----- 

		From: djrosen at comcast.net 

		Sent: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:14 AM 

		Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 194] Re: GED programs with a popular  

		education approach 

		  

		   Hi Andrea, 

		  

		Thanks.  I have emailed Lorna. 

		  

		All the best, 

		  

		David 

		  

		On Jan 5, 2007, at 1:37 PM, Andrea Wilder wrote: 

		  

		> David, 

		> 

		> Thank you for the list, it makes me feel very happy to have all these 

		> values in teaching spelled out. What a comprehensive list!  Lorna 

		> Rivera I believe used the term "popular education"  in her 

		> dissertation.  Perhaps you have already asked her about GED 

		> programs--she is at UMASS Boston. She is the best source I can 

		> think of 

		> right at the moment. 

		> 

		> Andrea 

		> 

		> On Jan 5, 2007, at 11:25 AM, David Rosen wrote: 

		> 

		>> Hi Andrea, 

		>> 

		>> Suppose we use the term "popular education" approach.  This suggests 

		>> to me: 

		>> 

		>> 1. a lack of hierarchy, that teachers treat students as their equals 

		>> in status and power although they have different roles, and the 

		>> program or school incorporates democratic decision-making practices. 

		>> Students and teachers, not just administrators and the board,  play a 

		>> central role in the decision-making process; 

		>> 2. a belief that the central purpose of education is to bring about 

		>> the conditions for social and economic justice and democracy; 

		>> 3. a commitment to raising the consciousness of students and 

		>> teachers, and helping them to become critically aware of how their 

		>> individual personal experiences are connected to larger social 

		>> problems; 

		>> 4. a commitment to social change, often at the community level; 

		>> 5. learning history and other social sciences from a variety of 

		>> perspectives, for example from the perspectives of: women, people of 

		>> color, immigrants, and workers; 

		>> 6. knowledge and skills learned in the context of issues which affect 

		>> students in their lives and in their communities; and 

		>> 7. an education process characterized by discussion and debate, not 

		>> just memorizing facts or learning skills. 

		>> 

		>> I doubt that this definition is complete, and some would say that 

		>> some elements are more important than others.  But when I use the 

		>> term, those are the ingredients I have in mind. 

		>> 

		>> I can think of a couple of community-based programs in Boston, an 

		>> ESOL program and an ABE/adult diploma program which -- currently or 

		>> in the past -- fit most of these criteria, but these are not GED 

		>> programs.  Anyone know of a GED program that has these ingredients? 

		>> 

		>> David J. Rosen 

		>> djrosen at comcast.net 

		>> 

		>> 

		>> On Jan 5, 2007, at 10:05 AM, Andrea Wilder wrote: 

		>> 

		>>> Hi David, 

		>>> 

		>>> I would be interested to know what a Freirian approach adult 

		>>> literacy 

		>>> program might look like.  In your opinion, what might be the 

		>>> ingredients? 

		>>> thanks. 

		>>> 

		>>> Andrea 

		>>> 

		>>> On Jan 5, 2007, at 3:13 AM, Ujwala Samant wrote: 

		>>> 

		>>>> Dear David, 

		>>>> 

		>>>> This is one question that I have been wondering about 

		>>>> for years. Aside from the 'glory days' in the 70s/80s 

		>>>> which colleagues of mine at NCSALL told me about and 

		>>>> one in NY, I could find no Freireian approaches to 

		>>>> adult literacy. I have studied the 70s-80s classics, 

		>>>> and I have been curious as to what happened since 

		>>>> then. 

		>>>> 

		>>>> Thanks for raising this question, 

		>>>> Warm regards, 

		>>>> Ujwala 

		>>>> 

		>>>> --- David Rosen <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote: 

		>>>> 

		>>>>> Colleagues, 

		>>>>> 

		>>>>> In a conversation yesterday I was asked if I know of 

		>>>>> good examples of 

		>>>>> GED preparation programs which use a popular 

		>>>>> education, or 

		>>>>> participatory (Freirean) approach.  I am only aware 

		>>>>> of one, a theme- 

		>>>>> based approach that the City University of New York 

		>>>>> adult literacy 

		>>>>> GED program has used for over a decade.  If you have 

		>>>>> others to 

		>>>>> suggest I would be pleased to hear about them. 

		>>>>> Thanks. 

		>>>>> 

		>>>>> David J. Rosen 

		>>>>> djrosen at comcast.net 

		>>>>> 

		>>>>> 

		>>>>> 

		>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- 

		>>>>> National Institute for Literacy 

		>>>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

		>>>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

		>>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, 

		>>>>> please go to 

		>>>>> 

		>>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

		>>>>> 

		>>>> 

		>>>> 

		>>>> __________________________________________________ 

		>>>> Do You Yahoo!? 

		>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 

		>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com 

		>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- 

		>>>> National Institute for Literacy 

		>>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

		>>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

		>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

		>>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

		>>>> 

		>>> 

		>>> ---------------------------------------------------- 

		>>> National Institute for Literacy 

		>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

		>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

		>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

		>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

		>> 

		>> David J. Rosen 

		>> djrosen at comcast.net 

		>> 

		>> 

		>> 

		>> ---------------------------------------------------- 

		>> National Institute for Literacy 

		>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

		>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

		>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

		>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

		>> 

		> 

		> ---------------------------------------------------- 

		> National Institute for Literacy 

		> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

		> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

		> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

		> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

		  

		David J. Rosen 

		djrosen at comcast.net 

		
		
		

		---------------------------------------------------- 

		National Institute for Literacy 

		Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

		PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

		To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

		http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

		 

		  

		________________________________________________________________________ 

		Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and  

		security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from  

		across the web, free AOL Mail and more. 

		  

		---------------------------------------------------- 

		National Institute for Literacy 

		Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

		PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

		To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

		---------------------------------------------------- 

		National Institute for Literacy 

		Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

		PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

		To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen 

	---------------------------------------------------- 

	National Institute for Literacy 

	Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list 

	PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov 

	To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/povertyracewomen/attachments/20070108/cb093cc2/attachment.html