Andres--

I do not dismiss Freire,.  I dismiss the language.  Bertha Mo expresses  
my feeling better than I have.

  I think anyone in adult literacy should know his work,  use it as an  
analytic frame, see what it highlights, what it leaves out.  Not to  
know Freire is to be low literate in the field.  He is a gigantic  
figure.

What I am really interested in, now that we have gotten this far,  is  
how you and others might use his concepts every day, if indeed you do.

Back  to Thoreau--in Walden  he talks about a  woodchopper,  
French-Canadian I think, who  boards at a house in the town.  What  
would become of him when he got too old to cut wood, or injured himself  
with a knife or ax?  Thoreau also describes an Irish family who trudge  
up the road with their goods on their backs, having just sold the  
boards in their home (shack) to Thoreau.  (I  think this is accurate.)   
I know this place, I know these people.  Thoreau's idea, in the end,  
was to  make a botanical inventory of Concord--he had started to read  
Darwin, had read Linnaeus.

When I spoke about Richard Cash's views about effective medical  
intervention, I was thinking about this kind  of situation--very local.  
  Often people who talk about theory start from the  top and apply it   
down--I'm not saying you do this, this is just an observation.  I  am  
suggesting that we look at the local, and star there to build up.   So  
this is why I am interested, now, in learning how teachers mesh local  
conditions with their understanding of Freire--or if they don't, and  
why not.  Cash's work has saved literally millions of children.

Andrea

On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:12 PM, Muro, Andres wrote:


>

> The words that you cite are words to describe concepts and ideas. If  

> you disagree with the concepts and ideas, then that is great. What I  

> am trying to understand is what specifically you don’t like about the  

> idea of, say, conscientization or critical praxis, etc. If you  

> disagree with these ideas and you can specify the reason, then we can  

> have a discussion about pedagogy. If you simple disregard them because  

> they get your goat, then you are silencing a conversation. Also, if  

> you have difficulty understanding what Freire meant by these things,  

> then you can always say: “I ain’t sure of what he means by “critical  

> praxis” and many will help define this. Then you can say that you  

> don’t like the idea of critical praxis because you don’t think that  

> people need to know what forces shape their experience before they  

> engage in activity, or you can say that you like the idea and you  

> agree with it. Again, dismissing terms because they get your goat, or  

> they sound Marxist is silencing a conversation before it starts. The  

> process of silencing by saying that something is Marxist, or Passé,  

> without engaging it is undemocratic. I know that that wasn’t your  

> intention, but it is the result. Instead of engaging Freire’s pedagogy  

> we are arguing with you about process.

>  

> I appreciate that you feel more inclined to Thoreau because of his  

> writing references to things that hit home. At the same time, Freire’s  

> work is part of the education field. I think that trying to understand  

> Freire is important just like it would be to understand current  

> anatomy and physiology or calculus if you want to be an engineer.

>  

> At the same time, if you don’t feel like you need to know or  

> understand Freire to be a good educator that is just fine too.  

> However, as I said before, dismissing him on the grounds that he is a  

> Marxist or his language gets your goat is not constructive or  

> conducive to anything.

>  

> Andres

>  

>

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov  

> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder

> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 11:45 AM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 207] Re: GED programs with  

> apopulareducationa pproach

>  

> Andres--

>  

> It's the language that is associated with Freire, and that Ditmar  

> used, some of it is quotations, I am sincerely grateful for that. I am  

> also grateful for Ditmar embedding definitions in his text.

>  

> But to your point, with or without quotations these word get my goat  

> (obviously): class consciousness, class struggle, conscientisation,  

> critical praxis, codification (which I actually usually do like), and  

> pedagogical praxis.

>  

> At one point Freire did go around the bend, my opinion, over in  

> Africa, and started to dictate how his workbooks were to be used. TSK.  

> Someone besides me picked this up, I was just reading along and there  

> it was.

>  

> By the way, I have I think a CD of Freire talking at Harvard's Ed  

> School. That's ambiguous, I think it is a CD, I know it is at HGSE.

>  

> David Rosen's list of attributes in Freirian/popular education  

> teaching was profoundly human and adapted to a pluralistic American  

> zeitgeist, my opinion.

>  

> I understand Thoreau, I live near Walden Pond, I know the New England  

> woods. Of course we have somewhat the same background, and MAYBE those  

> who come from S.America feel more of a kinship with the writing style  

> of Freire. Over to you, Andres. (AND WHERE IS THE SNOW?? I need snow  

> to fully appreciate Thoreau.)

>  

> Andrea

>

>

>

>

>

> On Jan 8, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>>  

>> What language are you referring to?

>>  

>>  

>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov  

>> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder

>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:47 AM

>> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 200] Re: GED programs with a  

>> populareducationa pproach

>>  

>> Ditmar and others,

>>  

>> I must put up my small flag here: I absolutely detest the language  

>> used in this educational movement. To me, it seems foreign and laid  

>> on with a trowel. Am I for social empowerment? Of course. Am I for  

>> social movements which try to being about even a modicum of social  

>> justice? Absolutely.

>>  

>> Back to the trenches,

>>  

>> Andrea

>>  

>> On Jan 8, 2007, at 7:33 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>>>  

>>> Hi Ujwalla, David, Andrea, Ditmar:

>>>  

>>> We did a project with our students that has strong Freirian  

>>> elements. This is an ongoing project with migrant students in which  

>>> they write their own stories and we publish them. to see this  

>>> project please visit:

>>>  

>>> http://bordersenses.com/memorias

>>>  

>>> While the stories are written in Spanish most of them have been  

>>> translated. If you want to read the content, please click on each of  

>>> the books. Also, to understand the theoretical foundation you can  

>>> read my introduction to both books. They are in English. I kept the  

>>> introductions very simple without making any references, However,  

>>> the work is influenced by Freire,Dewey, Giroux, etal. You will see  

>>> in the intrductions the elements of Freirianism that Ditmar points  

>>> to.

>>>  

>>> Andres

>>>  

>>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of  

>>> ditmar0906_inossian at netzero.net

>>> Sent: Sat 1/6/2007 4:26 PM

>>> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 197] Re: GED programs with a popular  

>>> educationa pproach

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Yes, Project Hope's Adult Learners Program uses (or did use) a  

>>> popular education approach that is distinctly Freireian, and this  

>>> program was the focus of Lorna's dissertation. For what it's worth,  

>>> "conscientisation" was the focus of Freire's approach: a process by  

>>> which a group (not at all about individual empowerment here [think  

>>> "class struggle"]) becomes aware of their oppression and discovers  

>>> that they have a popular culture that is both political and  

>>> social--has a sociopolitical role in history (as Marx understood  

>>> history). The group learners engage in "critical praxis" or dialogue  

>>> toward the end of identifying common interests. It's rather like an  

>>> effort to critique false consciousness through 1) an investigation  

>>> of the thematic universe (identifying themes); 2) identifying those  

>>> themes that are "generative"; 3) codification of those generative  

>>> themes, and 4) dialogue within the cultural circle of learners to  

>>> interpret those themes (i.e. create meaning). I know this sounds  

>>> very abstract but one might think of it as a very Marxist-oriented  

>>> version of the ideology critique that was advanced by the Frankfurt  

>>> School and later by educational theorists who continue to work in  

>>> this tradition (e.g. Giroux, Apple, etc.).

>>>  

>>> Freire's goal was social change, not individual empowerment nor  

>>> individual transformation. In fact, in my own reading of Freire, he  

>>> didn't even think that individual transformation was possible. In  

>>> other words, he never intended for his theory to be used as a means  

>>> for helping learners function within the given social system. One  

>>> might argue that if you change individuals, you will change society  

>>> (one person at a time). However, this can be true only from an  

>>> anthropological view of history (i.e., the driving force behind  

>>> history is human experience/consciousness). From a structuralist (or  

>>> Marxist) point of view, the consciousness of the individual makes no  

>>> difference; it's class consciousness that matters because one's  

>>> individual consciousness is a product of ideology; individuals  

>>> become subjects only through their subjection to processes of  

>>> production (i.e., the reproduction of production, or more commonly,  

>>> the reproduction of inequality). So basically "popular  

>>> education" becomes a mechanism for bringing about class struggle.  

>>> Finally, Freire never specified the end results of pedagogical  

>>> praxis because the "solution" or product was not known, in fact  

>>> could not be known--it evolved among/through the people. Social  

>>> change was then the process of peaceful intervention into the system  

>>> by initiating dialogue with the "oppressors" to develop  

>>> alternatives.

>>>  

>>> The philosophical foundations are to be found in Catholic humanism  

>>> (Catholic Action, Liberation Theology, etc.), orthodox Marxism, and  

>>> German philosophy (particularly Hegel). Freire also integrated bits  

>>> of critical theory into his approach, which evolved into his  

>>> "Movement of Education from the Base" (a take-off on the "Popular  

>>> Church from the Base" that evolved during the revolutionary period  

>>> in Latin America). See his two major contributions to adult  

>>> education theory and practice: Pedagogy of the Oppressed and  

>>> Education as the Practice of Freedom (both late 1960s). Lorna's  

>>> dissertation is a marvelous illustration of how one GED program puts  

>>> these principles into practice.

>>>  

>>> Thanks. --Ditmar

>>>  

>>> C. Ditmar Coffield

>>>  

>>>  

>>> -- eleonelli at aol.com wrote:

>>> David - I think that Project Hope in Dorchester, MA takes a popular 

>>> education approach in their program.

>>>  

>>> Esther

>>> __________________________________

>>> Esther D. Leonelli

>>>  

>>>  

>>> -----Original Message-----

>>> From: djrosen at comcast.net

>>> Sent: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:14 AM

>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 194] Re: GED programs with a popular 

>>> education approach

>>>  

>>>    Hi Andrea,

>>>  

>>> Thanks.  I have emailed Lorna.

>>>  

>>> All the best,

>>>  

>>> David

>>>  

>>> On Jan 5, 2007, at 1:37 PM, Andrea Wilder wrote:

>>>  

>>> > David,

>>> >

>>> > Thank you for the list, it makes me feel very happy to have all the 

>>> se

>>> > values in teaching spelled out. What a comprehensive list!  Lorna

>>> > Rivera I believe used the term "popular education"  in her

>>> > dissertation.  Perhaps you have already asked her about GED

>>> > programs--she is at UMASS Boston. She is the best source I can

>>> > think of

>>> > right at the moment.

>>> >

>>> > Andrea

>>> >

>>> > On Jan 5, 2007, at 11:25 AM, David Rosen wrote:

>>> >

>>> >> Hi Andrea,

>>> >>

>>> >> Suppose we use the term "popular education" approach.  This sugges 

>>> ts

>>> >> to me:

>>> >>

>>> >> 1. a lack of hierarchy, that teachers treat students as their equa 

>>> ls

>>> >> in status and power although they have different roles, and the

>>> >> program or school incorporates democratic decision- 

>>> making practices.

>>> >> Students and teachers, not just administrators and the board,  pla 

>>> y a

>>> >> central role in the decision-making process;

>>> >> 2. a belief that the central purpose of education is to bring abou 

>>> t

>>> >> the conditions for social and economic justice and democracy;

>>> >> 3. a commitment to raising the consciousness of students and

>>> >> teachers, and helping them to become critically aware of how their

>>> >> individual personal experiences are connected to larger social

>>> >> problems;

>>> >> 4. a commitment to social change, often at the community level;

>>> >> 5. learning history and other social sciences from a variety of

>>> >> perspectives, for example from the perspectives of: women, people  

>>> of

>>> >> color, immigrants, and workers;

>>> >> 6. knowledge and skills learned in the context of issues which aff 

>>> ect

>>> >> students in their lives and in their communities; and

>>> >> 7. an education process characterized by discussion and debate, no 

>>> t

>>> >> just memorizing facts or learning skills.

>>> >>

>>> >> I doubt that this definition is complete, and some would say that

>>> >> some elements are more important than others.  But when I use the

>>> >> term, those are the ingredients I have in mind.

>>> >>

>>> >> I can think of a couple of community-based programs in Boston, an

>>> >> ESOL program and an ABE/ 

>>> adult diploma program which -- currently or

>>> >> in the past -- fit most of these criteria, but these are not GED

>>> >> programs.  Anyone know of a GED program that has these ingredients 

>>> ?

>>> >>

>>> >> David J. Rosen

>>> >> djrosen at comcast.net

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >> On Jan 5, 2007, at 10:05 AM, Andrea Wilder wrote:

>>> >>

>>> >>> Hi David,

>>> >>>

>>> >>> I would be interested to know what a Freirian approach adult

>>> >>> literacy

>>> >>> program might look like.  In your opinion, what might be the

>>> >>> ingredients?

>>> >>> thanks.

>>> >>>

>>> >>> Andrea

>>> >>>

>>> >>> On Jan 5, 2007, at 3:13 AM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>>> >>>

>>> >>>> Dear David,

>>> >>>>

>>> >>>> This is one question that I have been wondering about

>>> >>>> for years. Aside from the 'glory days' in the 70s/80s

>>> >>>> which colleagues of mine at NCSALL told me about and

>>> >>>> one in NY, I could find no Freireian approaches to

>>> >>>> adult literacy. I have studied the 70s-80s classics,

>>> >>>> and I have been curious as to what happened since

>>> >>>> then.

>>> >>>>

>>> >>>> Thanks for raising this question,

>>> >>>> Warm regards,

>>> >>>> Ujwala

>>> >>>>

>>> >>>> --- David Rosen <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote:

>>> >>>>

>>> >>>>> Colleagues,

>>> >>>>>

>>> >>>>> In a conversation yesterday I was asked if I know of

>>> >>>>> good examples of

>>> >>>>> GED preparation programs which use a popular

>>> >>>>> education, or

>>> >>>>> participatory (Freirean) approach.  I am only aware

>>> >>>>> of one, a theme-

>>> >>>>> based approach that the City University of New York

>>> >>>>> adult literacy

>>> >>>>> GED program has used for over a decade.  If you have

>>> >>>>> others to

>>> >>>>> suggest I would be pleased to hear about them.

>>> >>>>> Thanks.

>>> >>>>>

>>> >>>>> David J. Rosen

>>> >>>>> djrosen at comcast.net

>>> >>>>>

>>> >>>>>

>>> >>>>>

>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

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>>> >>>>

>>> >>>>

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>>> >>>

>>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> >>> National Institute for Literacy

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>>> >>

>>> >> David J. Rosen

>>> >> djrosen at comcast.net

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >> ----------------------------------------------------

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>>> David J. Rosen

>>> djrosen at comcast.net

>>>

>>>

>>>

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