Andres--real quick here.

You asked me what marxism is, and I replied.  Did I say that Freire 
followed the tenets that I described as Marxist? No I did not say that.

There was a lot of discussion about marxism  after the USSR broke up.  
I remember one guy on a radio talk show saying something like this:  
"But marxism has never been tried!"  (Others were calling the USSR a 
marxist-leninist state.)  He was right,   So what are we to do with the 
  contradiction?  I  listed the elements  of marxism as it has been 
called, and as it has generally been agreed upon in talk, newspapers, 
etc.

"Socialism" has an allied problem of definitional incoherence.  The 
media often misapply the term "socialism" to mean a top down 
government.   It's a scare word.

I have not, except in one point, denied the usefulness of Freire's 
content.  I think Freire's linguistic  devices are unfortunate.

And I must ask, why aren't you writing examples of Freire's work, 
translated into your own idiom, in this discussion?  If you think that  
we need to be talking about Freire's content, why don't you do this 
yourself?  That  would be useful, I think. and  lots better than 
criticizing me for things I didn't say.  It would be good for readers 
of this list serv to  have concrete  examples at hand for demystifying 
Freire.  I would like that immensely. I crave plain talk.

  Andrea


On Jan 8, 2007, at 11:31 PM, Muro, Andres wrote:


> The marxist stuff that you imagine has nothing to do with Marxism or 

> Freire. It is propaganda. It is sort of associating Bush with 

> democracy and hating democracy because of Bush. Freire 

> incorporates theroetical constructs from many philosophies including 

> marx. We can talk about those constructs that Freire uses and what 

> they mean if you like. But associating Marx and Freire to Gulag, 

> dictatorships, etc is Mcartism.  

>  

> It is true that they are difficult to read. But many here have read 

> them many times and understand them well and will be happy to 

> articulate them for you if you like. I agree that some of the stuff is 

> difficult and requires some effort. But that is the case with any 

> field, when we get deep into it.

>  

> I am critical of social theorists when they use language that is 

> inaccessible to a large audience. It is not their fault either. Nor is 

> the fault of the people that lack the language to understand them. 

> But, we, experts in the field, have a responsibility to try to 

> understand and mediate between the extremes.

>  

> Rather than dismiss Freire's linguistic choices, we should try to 

> grasp the content. Then, we can decide if we agree with his argument 

> that masses are unconscious and oppressed, that we need to expose them 

> to society's economic forces that shape their circumstances or 

> conscientisize them. This is what we need to be talking about. Is 

> there any value in critical pedagogy? why/why not?  

>  

> On the other hand, if we start by dismissing Freire's linguistic 

> choices because they remind us of Gulag, then, the right wing 

> propaganda machine has won the battle. they have managed to tie 

> theoretical constructs that they fear to things that the society at 

> large have been taught to fear. It is like the Joan Baez song: "I 

> learn to hate Russians through my whole life. when the war comes, it 

> is then we must fight.." She needs to add a few lines since now it's 

> the arabs. How about: Bruce Springsten's"I was sent to a Foregn land, 

> to kill the sand man". blah, blah, blah....someone shut me up please.

>  

> Andres

>  

>  

>  

>  

>  

> Andres

>

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder

> Sent: Mon 1/8/2007 5:20 PM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 219] Re: GED programs with a 

> populareducationapproach

>

>

> You see, Andres, with your students  you translated Freirian thoughts

> (I guess/think) into a prose that they and we could understand.  Once

> the ideas are firmly enough in your mind, you can apply them, in your

> own language. I  think this is the way it should be in application,

> paying attention to the language of the  local.

>

> I am referring to Freire's African interlude, and I have my notes

> somewhere but just won't go get them now--it would take weeks.    By

> "marxist stuff" I probably mean top down central planning, a certain

> use of language--soviets and china spring to mind, and a generally grim

> attitude to happier ways to live life,  a kind of gulag prison system,

> and an us v them mentality.  Also an insistence on "right" and "wrong"

> ways of thinking.  Also, a "strong man" at the center.  The words and

> language and justifications  and rationalizations get all mixed up. 

> Zinn wrote very movingly on this topic from his former life as a dock

> worker.  You have read me in the past  about capitalism, I'm sure.  I'm

> not gong to go there.

>

> What I think important is 1)    survival;  2)   surviving well; 

> 3)      

> living an ordinary life.  If with my talents I can help that  along,

> then that is good and it is what I want to do.  These really simple

> three points can be  quite difficult to achieve.  You need adequate

> health care, for one, and an adequate diet--love and cherishing help,

> too, as well as basic  education, freedom to read what you want., a

> roof over your head.  And so on.  I bet everyone on this list could

> agree with these goals.

>

> Anyone on the list is free to talk about whatever political systems

> they want to talk about, I'm not taking up a large part of a limited

> space.  Thank you, Daphne!!

>

> Andrea

>

>        

> On Jan 8, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>

> > What do you mean by the Marxist stuff that Freire fell for? Which

> > Marxist stuff are you referring to? All of it. Can you explain what

> > specifically bothers you about "the Marxist stuff". Otherwise, it 

> sound

> > like one of those discussions where the Marxist stuff is all evil and

> > instead of having a discussion about concepts and ideas, we are

> > starting

> > the discussion with an a-priori determinations that we cannot include

> > certain things in the conversation because someone has arbitrarily

> > dismissed it.

> >

> > It's sort of those discussions where someone feels that phonics are

> > bad,

> > or sight-word is bad and without understanding anything about the

> > things

> > that they dislike, they dismiss it a-priori and embrace a no-phonics

> > approach, or only phonics approach.

> >

> > BTW, if you read my introductions to the books that the students 

> wrote,

> > you will not see any of the Marxist stuff. Just because I don't say

> > praxis, base-superstructure, conscientization, etc. it doesn't make 

> it

> > less Freirian.

> >

> > Andres

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov

> > [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder

> > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:51 AM

> > To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 204] Re: GED programs with a popular

> > educationapproach

> >

> > The marxist stuff--Freire fell for it  late in life.  The person and

> > the family disappear.  Also, the small face to face community.

> > "Class struggle" and "critical praxis."  This may well be a 

> vocabulary

> > problem, but otherwise i will not yield an inch.  I Think these are

> > short-cut words.  They often seem to be associated with a top down

> > approach  and  a big hammer.

> >

> > One of my heroes, Richard Cash,  who is  responsible for saving

> > millions of children  through oral rehydration therapy, says (I can't

> > find the exact quote) that you must go into the  local community, 

> that

> > is where you will find the right questions to ask.

> >

> > Ujwala--thanks for asking.

> >

> > Andrea

> >

> > On Jan 8, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

> >

> >> Dear Andrea,

> >>

> >> You've lost me there. What language do you detest?

> >>

> >> regards

> >> Ujwala

> >>

> >>

> >> --- Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote:

> >>

> >>> Ditmar and others,

> >>>

> >>> I must put up my small flag here:  I absolutely

> >>> detest the  language

> >>> used in this educational movement.  To me, it seems

> >>> foreign and laid on

> >>> with a  trowel.  Am I for social empowerment?  Of

> >>> course.  Am I for

> >>> social movements which try to being about even  a

> >>> modicum of social

> >>> justice?  Absolutely.

> >>>

> >>> Back to the trenches,

> >>>

> >>> Andrea

> >>>

> >>> On Jan 8, 2007, at 7:33 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:

> >>>

> >>>> Hi Ujwalla, David, Andrea, Ditmar:

> >>>>

> >>>> We did a project with our students that has strong

> >>> Freirian elements.

> >>>> This is an ongoing project with migrant students

> >>> in which they write

> >>>> their own stories and we publish them. to see this

> >>> project please

> >>>> visit:

> >>>>

> >>>> http://bordersenses.com/memorias

> >>>>

> >>>> While the stories are written in Spanish most of

> >>> them have been

> >>>> translated. If you want to read the content,

> >>> please click on each of

> >>>> the books. Also, to understand the theoretical

> >>> foundation you can read

> >>>> my introduction to both books. They are in

> >>> English. I kept the

> >>>> introductions very simple without making any

> >>> references, However, the

> >>>> work is influenced by Freire,Dewey, Giroux, etal.

> >>> You will see in the

> >>>> intrductions the elements of Freirianism that

> >>> Ditmar points to.

> >>>>

> >>>> Andres

> >>>>

> >>>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf

> >>> of

> >>>> ditmar0906_inossian at netzero.net

> >>>> Sent: Sat 1/6/2007 4:26 PM

> >>>> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

> >>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 197] Re: GED programs

> >>> with a popular

> >>>> educationa pproach

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Yes, Project Hope's Adult Learners Program uses

> >>> (or did use) a popular

> >>>> education approach that is distinctly Freireian,

> >>> and this program was

> >>>> the focus of Lorna's dissertation. For what it's

> >>> worth,

> >>>> "conscientisation" was the focus of Freire's

> >>> approach: a process by

> >>>> which a group (not at all about individual

> >>> empowerment here [think

> >>>> "class struggle"]) becomes aware of their

> >>> oppression and discovers

> >>>> that they have a popular culture that is both

> >>> political and

> >>>> social--has a sociopolitical role in history (as

> >>> Marx understood

> >>>> history). The group learners engage in "critical

> >>> praxis" or dialogue

> >>>> toward the end of identifying common interests.

> >>> It's rather like an

> >>>> effort to critique false consciousness through 1)

> >>> an investigation of

> >>>> the thematic universe (identifying themes); 2)

> >>> identifying those

> >>>> themes that are "generative"; 3) codification of

> >>> those generative

> >>>> themes, and 4) dialogue within the cultural circle

> >>> of learners to

> >>>> interpret those themes (i.e. create meaning). I

> >>> know this sounds very

> >>>> abstract but one might think of it as a very

> >>> Marxist-oriented version

> >>>> of the ideology critique that was advanced by the

> >>> Frankfurt School and

> >>>> later by educational theorists who continue to

> >>> work in this tradition

> >>>> (e.g. Giroux, Apple, etc.).

> >>>>

> >>>> Freire's goal was social change, not individual

> >>> empowerment nor

> >>>> individual transformation. In fact, in my own

> >>> reading of Freire, he

> >>>> didn't even think that individual transformation

> >>> was possible. In

> >>>> other words, he never intended for his theory to

> >>> be used as a means

> >>>> for helping learners function within the given

> >>> social system. One

> >>>> might argue that if you change individuals, you

> >>> will change society

> >>>> (one person at a time). However, this can be true

> >>> only from an

> >>>> anthropological view of history (i.e., the driving

> >>> force behind

> >>>> history is human experience/consciousness). From a

> >>> structuralist (or

> >>>> Marxist) point of view, the consciousness of the

> >>> individual makes no

> >>>> difference; it's class consciousness that matters

> >>> because one's

> >>>> individual consciousness is a product of ideology;

> >>> individuals become

> >>>> subjects only through their subjection to

> >>> processes of production

> >>>> (i.e., the reproduction of production, or more

> >>> commonly, the

> >>>> reproduction of inequality). So basically "popular

> >>> education" becomes

> >>>> a mechanism for bringing about class struggle.

> >>> Finally, Freire never

> >>>> specified the end results of pedagogical praxis

> >>> because the "solution"

> >>>> or product was not known, in fact could not be

> >>> known--it evolved

> >>>> among/through the people. Social change was then

> >>> the process of

> >>>> peaceful intervention into the system

> >>> by initiating dialogue with the

> >>>> "oppressors" to develop alternatives.

> >>>>

> >>>> The philosophical foundations are to be found in

> >>> Catholic humanism

> >>>> (Catholic Action, Liberation Theology,

> >>> etc.), orthodox Marxism, and

> >>>> German philosophy (particularly Hegel). Freire

> >>> also integrated bits of

> >>>> critical theory into his approach, which

> >>> evolved into his "Movement of

> >>>> Education from the Base" (a take-off on the

> >>> "Popular Church from the

> >>>> Base" that evolved during the revolutionary period

> >>> in Latin America).

> >>>> See his two major contributions to adult education

> >>> theory and

> >>>> practice: Pedagogy of the Oppressed and

> >>> Education as the Practice of

> >>>> Freedom (both late 1960s). Lorna's dissertation is

> >>> a marvelous

> >>>> illustration of how one GED program puts these

> >>> principles into

> >>>> practice.

> >>>>

> >>>> Thanks. --Ditmar

> >>>>

> >>>> C. Ditmar Coffield

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> -- eleonelli at aol.com wrote:

> >>>>

> >>> David - I think that Project Hope in Dorchester, MA

> >> takes a popular

> >>>> education approach in their program.

> >>>>

> >>>> Esther

> >>>> __________________________________

> >>>> Esther D. Leonelli

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> -----Original Message-----

> >>>> From: djrosen at comcast.net

> >>>> Sent: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:14 AM

> >>>>

> >>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 194] Re: GED programs

> >> with a popular

> >>>> education approach

> >>>>

> >>>>    Hi Andrea,

> >>>>

> >>>> Thanks.  I have emailed Lorna.

> >>>>

> >>>> All the best,

> >>>>

> >>>> David

> >>>>

> >>>> On Jan 5, 2007, at 1:37 PM, Andrea Wilder wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>>> David,

> >>>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Thank you for the list, it makes me feel very

> >> happy to have all these

> >>>>

> >>>> values in teaching spelled out. What a

> >> comprehensive list!  Lorna

> >>>>

> >>>> Rivera I believe used the term "popular education"

> >>  in her

> >>>>

> >>>> dissertation.  Perhaps you have already asked her

> >> about GED

> >>>

> >> === message truncated ===>

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