Ujwala,


The image I brought up was the image of a marxist leninist state, as 
evidenced by both the USSR and china under Mao.  There were many 
discussions in the press about whether  this was true marxism or not, 
or whether marxism existed as a utopian vision (utopia = "nowhere.") 
that could  never  be realized.  The indicators of marxism I rattled 
off are kind of the commonly/popularly held attributes of a marxist 
state.  So we've got four problems:  1)    popular definition, 2)  
academic definition, 3) actual behavior and 4)	outcomes.	

As spoken about commonly in this country socialism has the same problem 
of definitional incoherence.  It is popularly  used as a euphemism for  
marxism.  England's form of health insurance is  often described as 
"socialistic" in a pejorative way, as is Canada's health  system.In 
this country  the two examples are often talked about as "the 
government taking over."  Yes,   in my opinion there is a problem with 
definitions, I am calling this "definitional incoherence."  Where I 
come from, the United States, it  is used as a scare word.

In a piece I read about Sao Tome and Principe it seemed clear to the 
critic (examples given) that Freire was  using a top down approach  to  
the use of his workbooks  in teaching.   It certainly looked that way 
to me, also.  I do not have the article at my fingertips, but the 
author as I recall had set out to do a comprehensive critique of 
Freire--i think he was English, maybe Australian, not an American, i 
could be wrong on this.

Piaget's writing is rather stiff at some points, also.  I  think this 
was a translation, also, that I read.  It is really hard to know what 
an author is saying until  you can see the pertinent behaviors

Yes, one needs examples, they are very useful to understand exactly how 
theory  is translated into practice. Your experience is obviously 
really useful in this discussion.

  Let's take Kerala, of which I  know little, but  I do know enough so 
that I need to learn more--Kerala i have heard  talked about informally 
as having some "communist" aspects.  i don't  know what that means, 
meaning, I don't know what is being referred to, so it's a good thing 
to look at behaviors.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia on Kerala:  "Social reforms enacted in 
the late `19th century by Cochin and Travancore were expanded upon by 
post-independence governments, making Kerala among the longest-lived, 
healthiest, most gender-equitable, and most literate regions outside of 
  the developed countries.  However, Kerala's suicide rate and 
unemployment are among India's highest."  I have heard before  about 
the literacy and gender-equity, and have  seen a  short  film on 
Kerala.  I
am not going to go to India, at least this year, instead, you are 
bringing India to me, which is what I requested, and  thank you for it.

There may be other examples from people in other countries that are 
parallel to yours.

I said my goals were surviving, surviving well, and living an ordinary 
life.  These seem to me  pretty good measures of theory-in-practice.  I 
derived them from people who write on development and from my own life 
experience.

Is your work on learner voice available?

I wouldn't dream of insulting you or your work, or what you are trying 
to accomplish.

Andrea



On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:22 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:


> Andrea,

>

>> You asked me what marxism is, and I replied.  Did I

>> say that Freire

>> followed the tenets that I described as Marxist? No

>> I did not say that.<<

>

> You said Freire succumbed to Marxism and then

> proceeded to define it in terms that brought up image

> of what Marxism was to you. By virtue of that you

> implied that is what you felt Freire fell for.

>

>> There was a lot of discussion about marxism  after

>> the USSR broke up.

>> I remember one guy on a radio talk show saying

>> something like this:

>> "But marxism has never been tried!"  (Others were

>> calling the USSR a

>> marxist-leninist state.)  He was right,   So what

>> are we to do with the

>>   contradiction?  I  listed the elements  of marxism

>> as it has been

>> called, and as it has generally been agreed upon in

>> talk, newspapers,

>> etc.<<

>

> That does not relate to the discussion right now.

> Let's stick to what you said Marxism was and implied

> that that was what Freire fell victim to.

>

>> "Socialism" has an allied problem of definitional

>> incoherence. <<

> In your interpretation I take it?

>

>>> The

>> media often misapply the term "socialism" to mean a

>> top down

>> government.   It's a scare word.<<

>

> Not where I come from. Sounds suspiciously like

> capitalism to me.

>

>> I have not, except in one point, denied the

>> usefulness of Freire's

>> content.  I think Freire's linguistic  devices are

>> unfortunate.<<

>

> As are Kant's, Hegel's, Piaget's, and we could go

> on...

>

>> And I must ask, why aren't you writing examples of

>> Freire's work,

>> translated into your own idiom, in this

> discussion?<<

>

> For me it is because I am amazed that one needs

> examples. I work in a domain where I see this popular

> education/community development happen. All one has to

> do is search the net and search the NGO world. When I

> see communities in Andhra Pradesh ravaged by HIV/AIDS

> organising, and working with NGOS and government

> agencies to make changes in their environment for

> themselves, that is an excellent example of Freire in

> action. When 5-year olds are taught to resolve

> conflicts and articulate their demands, I see the

> seeds of power being sown. In SIDH when the

> organisation is in seamless praxis with communities,

> well.. I could go on. Listen, look beyond yourself and

> your world and you will find...

>

>> If you think that

>> we need to be talking about Freire's content, why

>> don't you do this

>> yourself?  That  would be useful, I think. and  lots

>> better than

>> criticizing me for things I didn't say.  It would be

>> good for readers

>> of this list serv to  have concrete  examples at

>> hand for demystifying

>> Freire.  I would like that immensely. I crave plain

>> talk.<<

>

> So, what you are saying that it is plain talk as

> defined by you... Plain talk or talk of any kind

> varies within the context. My personal example is

> having to learn how to address an American audience

> and write papers for American professors and accept

> that one can get 100% on qualitative exams. How about

> expanding the definition of plain talk?

>

> I have found that there are as many expressions of

> Freire as there are programmes. Does not mean I agree

> with all of them. I find it hard to see Freire in

> action in present day America, yet I am told it

> exists. Not in the Adult Literacy Centres I observed.

> It was very top down. Definitely not in GED classes,

> or even in ESOL classes. My personal research on

> learner voice was a real eye opener in terms of the

> very existence of learner voice. My interviews with

> learners (in more than one American state) showed that

> every learner had more than one voice, and not all of

> these were shared with the authorities.

>

> I think Andrea, this is turning into an exercise that

> could well be semantic hair-splitting. Andres and

> David have explained very well what their take on

> Freire is.

>

> Cheers

> Ujwala

>

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