Peter--

Maybe a measure of success was shutting the project down and jailing  
Freire.

Andrea


On Jan 9, 2007, at 4:46 PM, andreawilder at comcast.net wrote:


> Peter--

>

> Yes, I think Freire and Fanon belong together.

>

> Thoreau was in and out of his friends' houses in Concord;  he worked  

> as a surveyor;  he eventually earned money as a writer, and he did  

> eventually (I think) take over his family's pencil business, where he  

> invented a new mixture for graphite.

>

> He was developing into a naturalist, and eventually what we would call  

> an ecologist.  I don't think he preached anything but some of his  

> phrases are well known.  He feared for the country because of  

> industrailization, and the despoilization of the Amazon which you  

> mention he would have understood, also.  He was highly educated,  

> college, and taught school for a time.  I think he is important for  

> several reasons, one is the linkage he made between industrialization  

> and destruction of the natural world.  He lived as simply as he could,  

> on Emerson's land.

>

> Peter, do you follow Freirian principles in your work?  If so, what is  

> at the top of your list?  Or does his power lie in describing a  

> reality which  you see also?

>

> An academic point--does anyone know how successful he was in his  

> teaching? That is, did anyone ask this question, whatever  measures  

> might have been used?

>

> Andrea

>  -------------- Original message ----------------------

> From: "Peter MacMonagle" <Peter.MacMonagle at cpcc.edu>

>> Colleagues,

>>

>> First of all...Why the giant 72pt typeface?

>>

>> Secondly.....In societies like ours where forces in the marketplace  

>> and

>> government dictates take over control of the more private areas of  

>> people's

>> lives, I believe we have a situation where we need more enlightenment  

>> about

>> individual empowerment, not less.  We talk a lot about teaching  

>> people to take

>> control of their lives and their careers, but what we are faced with  

>> is a

>> capitalist marketplace that removes that control with no input from  

>> the people

>> it affects. I am not against capitalism, but I reject the  

>> non-regulated

>> marketplace that has removed democratic institutions from our polity.

>>

>> Freire took the poorest of the poor in a country ruled by oligarchic  

>> families

>> and taught them to read so they could question the injustice of their

>> empoverishment. The military government shut the project down and  

>> jailed Freire

>> for the very reason governments have to fear those who question their  

>> place in

>> the scheme of things....maintaining power and the money, land, and  

>> education

>> that guarantees that power. Read Fanon's Wretched of the Earth for an  

>> Algerian's

>> take on this kind of colonialism. And today we have monied interests  

>> bulldozing

>> the Amazon over the protests of the indigenous population because  

>> they can do so

>> with impunity.

>>

>> As for Thoreau, he lived on his own but he was not poor. I believe  

>> there is a

>> great difference between people who preach the simple life, but are  

>> nowhere near

>> the living reality of oppressed empoverishment under colonial rule  

>> whether

>> internal or by external armies and government from afar. This is the  

>> invisible

>> safety net white people and colonial governments keep for themselves,  

>> and in no

>> way is near what the people (colonialized proletariat, etc)  

>> experience.

>>

>> Here in the US we have a reproductive education that would keep the  

>> status quo

>> because it benefits the middle class and above. Any real Freiren  

>> approach is

>> anathema to this social order.  So we can either use Freire's work to  

>> help

>> students think for themselves and understand why they can't get  

>> ahead, or why

>> the educational goalposts keep moving; or we can educate for a  

>> revolution. I

>> doubt that will happen here, because the real voices for change will  

>> not be able

>> to overcome the lethargy of the self-satisfied who have found their  

>> niche in the

>> social order. Once again...read Frantz Fanon and then apply the  

>> thought to the

>> inner city minority students and under-educated here who see their  

>> lives in

>> terms of being at the mercy of forces beyond their control. Once  

>> again: Katrina

>> is a good example, but it is prevalent everywhere among the  

>> marginalized.

>>

>> Wm. Peter MacMonagle, M.Ed.

>> Central Piedmont Community College

>> Community Development/Workplace Basic Skills

>> West Campus 2219

>> 704-330-4668

>>

>> "I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world

>> that truly makes living worthwhile?"

>> Death thought about it.

>> "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice."

>> Terry Pratchett, Sourcery

>>

>>

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Muro, Andres

>> Sent: Mon 1/8/2007 11:33 PM

>> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List; The Poverty,

>> Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 223] Re: GED  

>> programswithapopulareducationa	pproach

>>

>> Andrea: Ok, now you have a good question, how can we apply Freire's  

>> terminology

>> to our daily work. Which terms would you like to explore  

>> specifically? Lets

>> start with a few at the time and maybe different people can share  

>> examples of

>> possible Freirian work.

>>

>> I wonder if the people from New orleans are around. Margerie and Lou  

>> and others

>> were doing these great anti- racist workshops grounded on a lot of  

>> Freirian

>> stuff.

>>

>> Andres

>>

>> ________________________________

>>

>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder

>> Sent: Mon 1/8/2007 7:35 PM

>> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 220] Re: GED programs  

>> withapopulareducationa pproach

>>

>>

>> Andres--

>>

>> I do not dismiss Freire,. I dismiss the language. Bertha Mo expresses  

>> my feeling

>> better than I have.

>>

>> I think anyone in adult literacy should know his work, use it as an  

>> analytic

>> frame, see what it highlights, what it leaves out. Not to know Freire  

>> is to be

>> low literate in the field. He is a gigantic figure.

>>

>> What I am really interested in, now that we have gotten this far, is  

>> how you and

>> others might use his concepts every day, if indeed you do.

>>

>> Back to Thoreau--in Walden he talks about a woodchopper,  

>> French-Canadian I

>> think, who boards at a house in the town. What would become of him  

>> when he got

>> too old to cut wood, or injured himself with a knife or ax? Thoreau  

>> also

>> describes an Irish family who trudge up the road with their goods on  

>> their

>> backs, having just sold the boards in their home (shack) to Thoreau.  

>> (I think

>> this is accurate.) I know this place, I know these people. Thoreau's  

>> idea, in

>> the end, was to make a botanical inventory of Concord--he had started  

>> to read

>> Darwin, had read Linnaeus.

>>

>> When I spoke about Richard Cash's views about effective medical  

>> intervention, I

>> was thinking about this kind of situation--very local. Often people  

>> who talk

>> about theory start from the top and apply it down--I'm not saying you  

>> do this,

>> this is just an observation. I am suggesting that we look at the  

>> local, and star

>> there to build up. So this is why I am interested, now, in learning  

>> how teachers

>> mesh local conditions with their understanding of Freire--or if they  

>> don't, and

>> why not. Cash's work has saved literally millions of children.

>>

>> Andrea

>>

>> On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:12 PM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>>

>>

>> 	The words that you cite are words to describe concepts and ideas. If  

>> you

>> disagree with the concepts and ideas, then that is great. What I am  

>> trying to

>> understand is what specifically you don't like about the idea of, say,

>> conscientization or critical praxis, etc. If you disagree with these  

>> ideas and

>> you can specify the reason, then we can have a discussion about  

>> pedagogy. If you

>> simple disregard them because they get your goat, then you are  

>> silencing a

>> conversation. Also, if you have difficulty understanding what Freire  

>> meant by

>> these things, then you can always say: "I ain't sure of what he means  

>> by

>> "critical praxis" and many will help define this. Then you can say  

>> that you

>> don't like the idea of critical praxis because you don't think that  

>> people need

>> to know what forces shape their experience before they engage in  

>> activity, or

>> you can say that you like the idea and you agree with it. Again,  

>> dismissing

>> terms because they get your goat, or they sound Marxist is silencing a

>> conversation before it starts. The process of silencing by saying  

>> that something

>> is Marxist, or Passé, without engaging it is undemocratic. I know  

>> that that

>> wasn't your intention, but it is the result. Instead of engaging  

>> Freire's

>> pedagogy we are arguing with you about process.

>> 	

>> 	I appreciate that you feel more inclined to Thoreau because of his

>> writing references to things that hit home. At the same time,  

>> Freire's work is

>> part of the education field. I think that trying to understand Freire  

>> is

>> important just like it would be to understand current anatomy and  

>> physiology or

>> calculus if you want to be an engineer.

>> 	

>> 	At the same time, if you don't feel like you need to know or  

>> understand

>> Freire to be a good educator that is just fine too. However, as I  

>> said before,

>> dismissing him on the grounds that he is a Marxist or his language  

>> gets your

>> goat is not constructive or conducive to anything.

>> 	

>> 	Andres

>> 	

>>

>> 	From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder

>> 	Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 11:45 AM

>> 	To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

>> 	Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 207] Re: GED programs with  

>> apopulareducationa

>> pproach

>> 	

>> 	Andres--

>> 	

>> 	It's the language that is associated with Freire, and that Ditmar  

>> used,

>> some of it is quotations, I am sincerely grateful for that. I am also  

>> grateful

>> for Ditmar embedding definitions in his text.

>> 	

>> 	But to your point, with or without quotations these word get my goat

>> (obviously): class consciousness, class struggle, conscientisation,  

>> critical

>> praxis, codification (which I actually usually do like), and  

>> pedagogical praxis.

>> 	

>> 	At one point Freire did go around the bend, my opinion, over in  

>> Africa,

>> and started to dictate how his workbooks were to be used. TSK.  

>> Someone besides

>> me picked this up, I was just reading along and there it was.

>> 	

>> 	By the way, I have I think a CD of Freire talking at Harvard's Ed

>> School. That's ambiguous, I think it is a CD, I know it is at HGSE.

>> 	

>> 	David Rosen's list of attributes in Freirian/popular education  

>> teaching

>> was profoundly human and adapted to a pluralistic American zeitgeist,  

>> my

>> opinion.

>> 	

>> 	I understand Thoreau, I live near Walden Pond, I know the New England

>> woods. Of course we have somewhat the same background, and MAYBE  

>> those who come

>> from S.America feel more of a kinship with the writing style of  

>> Freire. Over to

>> you, Andres. (AND WHERE IS THE SNOW?? I need snow to fully appreciate  

>> Thoreau.)

>> 	

>> 	Andrea

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> 	On Jan 8, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>>

>> 		

>> 		What language are you referring to?

>> 		

>> 		

>> 		From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder

>> 		Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:47 AM

>> 		To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

>> 		Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 200] Re: GED programs with a

>> populareducationa pproach

>> 		

>> 		Ditmar and others,

>> 		

>> 		I must put up my small flag here: I absolutely detest the

>> language used in this educational movement. To me, it seems foreign  

>> and laid on

>> with a trowel. Am I for social empowerment? Of course. Am I for  

>> social movements

>> which try to being about even a modicum of social justice? Absolutely.

>> 		

>> 		Back to the trenches,

>> 		

>> 		Andrea

>> 		

>> 		On Jan 8, 2007, at 7:33 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>>

>> 			

>> 			Hi Ujwalla, David, Andrea, Ditmar:

>> 			

>> 			We did a project with our students that has strong

>> Freirian elements. This is an ongoing project with migrant students  

>> in which

>> they write their own stories and we publish them. to see this project  

>> please

>> visit:

>> 			

>> 			http://bordersenses.com/memorias

>> 			

>> 			While the stories are written in Spanish most of them

>> have been translated. If you want to read the content, please click  

>> on each of

>> the books. Also, to understand the theoretical foundation you can  

>> read my

>> introduction to both books. They are in English. I kept the  

>> introductions very

>> simple without making any references, However, the work is influenced  

>> by

>> Freire,Dewey, Giroux, etal. You will see in the intrductions the  

>> elements of

>> Freirianism that Ditmar points to.

>> 			

>> 			Andres

>> 			

>> 			From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of

>> ditmar0906_inossian at netzero.net

>> 			Sent: Sat 1/6/2007 4:26 PM

>> 			To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

>> 			Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 197] Re: GED programs with a

>> popular educationa pproach

>> 			

>> 			

>> 			Yes, Project Hope's Adult Learners Program uses (or did

>> use) a popular education approach that is distinctly Freireian, and  

>> this program

>> was the focus of Lorna's dissertation. For what it's worth,  

>> "conscientisation"

>> was the focus of Freire's approach: a process by which a group (not  

>> at all about

>> individual empowerment here [think "class struggle"]) becomes aware  

>> of their

>> oppression and discovers that they have a popular culture that is  

>> both political

>> and social--has a sociopolitical role in history (as Marx understood  

>> history).

>> The group learners engage in "critical praxis" or dialogue toward the  

>> end of

>> identifying common interests. It's rather like an effort to critique  

>> false

>> consciousness through 1) an investigation of the thematic universe  

>> (identifying

>> themes); 2) identifying those themes that are "generative"; 3)  

>> codification of

>> those generative themes, and 4) dialogue within the cultural circle  

>> of learners

>> to interpret those themes (i.e. create meaning). I know this sounds  

>> very

>> abstract but one might think of it as a very Marxist-oriented version  

>> of the

>> ideology critique that was advanced by the Frankfurt School and later  

>> by

>> educational theorists who continue to work in this tradition (e.g.  

>> Giroux,

>> Apple, etc.).

>> 			

>> 			Freire's goal was social change, not individual

>> empowerment nor individual transformation. In fact, in my own reading  

>> of Freire,

>> he didn't even think that individual transformation was possible. In  

>> other

>> words, he never intended for his theory to be used as a means for  

>> helping

>> learners function within the given social system. One might argue  

>> that if you

>> change individuals, you will change society (one person at a time).  

>> However,

>> this can be true only from an anthropological view of history (i.e.,  

>> the driving

>> force behind history is human experience/consciousness). From a  

>> structuralist

>> (or Marxist) point of view, the consciousness of the individual makes  

>> no

>> difference; it's class consciousness that matters because one's  

>> individual

>> consciousness is a product of ideology; individuals become subjects  

>> only through

>> their subjection to processes of production (i.e., the reproduction of

>> production, or more commonly, the reproduction of inequality). So  

>> basically

>> "popular education" becomes a mechanism for bringing about class  

>> struggle.

>> Finally, Freire never specified the end results of pedagogical praxis  

>> because

>> the "solution" or product was not known, in fact could not be  

>> known--it evolved

>> among/through the people. Social change was then the process of  

>> peaceful

>> intervention into the system by initiating dialogue with the  

>> "oppressors" to

>> develop alternatives.

>> 			

>> 			The philosophical foundations are to be found in

>> Catholic humanism (Catholic Action, Liberation Theology, etc.),  

>> orthodox

>> Marxism, and German philosophy (particularly Hegel). Freire also  

>> integrated bits

>> of critical theory into his approach, which evolved into his  

>> "Movement of

>> Education from the Base" (a take-off on the "Popular Church from the  

>> Base" that

>> evolved during the revolutionary period in Latin America). See his  

>> two major

>> contributions to adult education theory and practice: Pedagogy of the  

>> Oppressed

>> and Education as the Practice of Freedom (both late 1960s). Lorna's  

>> dissertation

>> is a marvelous illustration of how one GED program puts these  

>> principles into

>> practice.

>> 			

>> 			Thanks. --Ditmar

>> 			

>> 			C. Ditmar Coffield

>> 			

>> 			

>> 			-- eleonelli at aol.com wrote:

>> 			David - I think that Project Hope in Dorchester, MA

>> takes a popular

>> 			education approach in their program.

>> 			

>> 			Esther

>> 			__________________________________

>> 			Esther D. Leonelli

>> 			

>> 			

>> 			-----Original Message-----

>> 			From: djrosen at comcast.net

>> 			Sent: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:14 AM

>> 			Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 194] Re: GED programs with a

>> popular

>> 			education approach

>> 			

>> 			   Hi Andrea,

>> 			

>> 			Thanks.  I have emailed Lorna.

>> 			

>> 			All the best,

>> 			

>> 			David

>> 			

>> 			On Jan 5, 2007, at 1:37 PM, Andrea Wilder wrote:

>> 			

>> 			> David,

>> 			>

>> 			> Thank you for the list, it makes me feel very happy to

>> have all these

>> 			> values in teaching spelled out. What a comprehensive

>> list!  Lorna

>> 			> Rivera I believe used the term "popular education"  in

>> her

>> 			> dissertation.  Perhaps you have already asked her

>> about GED

>> 			> programs--she is at UMASS Boston. She is the best

>> source I can

>> 			> think of

>> 			> right at the moment.

>> 			>

>> 			> Andrea

>> 			>

>> 			> On Jan 5, 2007, at 11:25 AM, David Rosen wrote:

>> 			>

>> 			>> Hi Andrea,

>> 			>>

>> 			>> Suppose we use the term "popular education" approach.

>> This suggests

>> 			>> to me:

>> 			>>

>> 			>> 1. a lack of hierarchy, that teachers treat students

>> as their equals

>> 			>> in status and power although they have different

>> roles, and the

>> 			>> program or school incorporates democratic

>> decision-making practices.

>> 			>> Students and teachers, not just administrators and

>> the board,  play a

>> 			>> central role in the decision-making process;

>> 			>> 2. a belief that the central purpose of education is

>> to bring about

>> 			>> the conditions for social and economic justice and

>> democracy;

>> 			>> 3. a commitment to raising the consciousness of

>> students and

>> 			>> teachers, and helping them to become critically aware

>> of how their

>> 			>> individual personal experiences are connected to

>> larger social

>> 			>> problems;

>> 			>> 4. a commitment to social change, often at the

>> community level;

>> 			>> 5. learning history and other social sciences from a

>> variety of

>> 			>> perspectives, for example from the perspectives of:

>> women, people of

>> 			>> color, immigrants, and workers;

>> 			>> 6. knowledge and skills learned in the context of

>> issues which affect

>> 			>> students in their lives and in their communities; and

>> 			>> 7. an education process characterized by discussion

>> and debate, not

>> 			>> just memorizing facts or learning skills.

>> 			>>

>> 			>> I doubt that this definition is complete, and some

>> would say that

>> 			>> some elements are more important than others.  But

>> when I use the

>> 			>> term, those are the ingredients I have in mind.

>> 			>>

>> 			>> I can think of a couple of community-based programs

>> in Boston, an

>> 			>> ESOL program and an ABE/adult diploma program which

>> -- currently or  

>> 			>> in the past -- fit most of these criteria, but these

>> are not GED

>> 			>> programs.  Anyone know of a GED program that has

>> these ingredients?

>> 			>>

>> 			>> David J. Rosen

>> 			>> djrosen at comcast.net

>> 			>>

>> 			>>

>> 			>> On Jan 5, 2007, at 10:05 AM, Andrea Wilder wrote:

>> 			>>

>> 			>>> Hi David,

>> 			>>>

>> 			>>> I would be interested to know what a Freirian

>> approach adult

>> 			>>> literacy

>> 			>>> program might look like.  In your opinion, what

>> might be the

>> 			>>> ingredients?

>> 			>>> thanks.

>> 			>>>

>> 			>>> Andrea

>> 			>>>

>> 			>>> On Jan 5, 2007, at 3:13 AM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>> 			>>>

>> 			>>>> Dear David,

>> 			>>>>

>> 			>>>> This is one question that I have been wondering

>> about

>> 			>>>> for years. Aside from the 'glory days' in the

>> 70s/80s

>> 			>>>> which colleagues of mine at NCSALL told me about

>> and

>> 			>>>> one in NY, I could find no Freireian approaches to

>> 			>>>> adult literacy. I have studied the 70s-80s

>> classics,

>> 			>>>> and I have been curious as to what happened since

>> 			>>>> then.

>> 			>>>>

>> 			>>>> Thanks for raising this question,

>> 			>>>> Warm regards,

>> 			>>>> Ujwala

>> 			>>>>

>> 			>>>> --- David Rosen <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote:

>> 			>>>>

>> 			>>>>> Colleagues,

>> 			>>>>>

>> 			>>>>> In a conversation yesterday I was asked if I know

>> of

>> 			>>>>> good examples of

>> 			>>>>> GED preparation programs which use a popular

>> 			>>>>> education, or

>> 			>>>>> participatory (Freirean) approach.  I am only

>> aware

>> 			>>>>> of one, a theme-

>> 			>>>>> based approach that the City University of New

>> York

>> 			>>>>> adult literacy

>> 			>>>>> GED program has used for over a decade.  If you

>> have

>> 			>>>>> others to

>> 			>>>>> suggest I would be pleased to hear about them.

>> 			>>>>> Thanks.

>> 			>>>>>

>> 			>>>>> David J. Rosen

>> 			>>>>> djrosen at comcast.net

>> 			>>>>>

>> 			>>>>>

>> 			>>>>>

>> 			>>>>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> 			>>>>> National Institute for Literacy

>> 			>>>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> 			>>>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

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>> settings,

>> 			>>>>> please go to

>> 			>>>>>

>> 			>>>>

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>> 			>>>>

>> 			>>>>

>> 			>>>> __________________________________________________

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>> 			>>> ----------------------------------------------------

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>> 			>> David J. Rosen

>> 			>> djrosen at comcast.net

>> 			>>

>> 			>>

>> 			>>

>> 			>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> 			>> National Institute for Literacy

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>> 			djrosen at comcast.net

>>

>>

>>

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>> please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>> 		----------------------------------------------------

>> 		National Institute for Literacy

>> 		Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> 		PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> 		To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go

>> to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>> 	----------------------------------------------------

>> 	National Institute for Literacy

>> 	Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> 	PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> 	To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen