Freire is a true revolutionary because he taught people to read, so they could read, think and hopefully act om their own behalf.  I feel that my own education was remiss (and I went to the best schools) because my professors taught around Freire (....teach a person to fish and they'll never be hungry) because my MPH class in community health education was comprised of almost 3/4 people of color and perhaps they didn't think we were smart enough to understand Freire or perhaps they didn't want us to know Freire and his revolutionary work.  I was lucky enough to continue my education and also be involved with people in my professional life who reintroduced him to me.

Participating in this listserve has helped me to reflect back on my entry into graduate school during a time when non-physicians and people of color began to enter Schools of Public Health. The warm support of fellow students and the mixed messages from our primarily white professors is something that I had forgotten.

I'm still interested in hearing examples of GED programs which use the Freirean model either consciously or unconsciously.  I say unconsciously because I wanted to share a bit about the Adult High School of Ottawa, which closed a few years ago.  A dear colleague rom the Carribbean was able to receive her GED at the school and then go on to College, University and is now a registered social worker.  She is a change agent in our community speaking out about structural racism in Canada and teaching and speaking about the need for community/ culturally competent service.  My husband who helped to start a new meals on wheels programs for immigrant seniors was able to continue his education by doing two years of classes at the Adult High School before entering college. The vice principal of the Adult High School encouraged student leadership and my husband gave many motivational speeches as well as coached students in public speaking.  Isn't this peer learning, which is one of
 Freire's approaches.

Bertie Mo

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Today's Topics:

   1. [PovertyRaceWomen 232] Re: GED programs with a
      populareducationapproach (Ujwala Samant)
   2. [PovertyRaceWomen 233] Re: GED
      programswithapopulareducationapproach (andreawilder at comcast.net)
   3. [PovertyRaceWomen 234] Re: GED programs with a
      populareducationapproach (Andrea Wilder)
   4. [PovertyRaceWomen 235] Re: GED
      programswithapopulareducationapproach (Andrea Wilder)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 15:22:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Ujwala Samant 
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 232] Re: GED programs with a
 populareducationapproach
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
 

Message-ID: <20070109232259.60372.qmail at web55102.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Andrea,
 

> You asked me what marxism is, and I replied.  Did I

> say that Freire 

> followed the tenets that I described as Marxist? No

> I did not say that.<<


You said Freire succumbed to Marxism and then
proceeded to define it in terms that brought up image
of what Marxism was to you. By virtue of that you
implied that is what you felt Freire fell for. 


> There was a lot of discussion about marxism  after

> the USSR broke up.  

> I remember one guy on a radio talk show saying

> something like this:  

> "But marxism has never been tried!"  (Others were

> calling the USSR a 

> marxist-leninist state.)  He was right,   So what

> are we to do with the 

>   contradiction?  I  listed the elements  of marxism

> as it has been 

> called, and as it has generally been agreed upon in

> talk, newspapers, 

> etc.<<


That does not relate to the discussion right now.
Let's stick to what you said Marxism was and implied
that that was what Freire fell victim to.
 

> "Socialism" has an allied problem of definitional

> incoherence. <<

In your interpretation I take it?


>>The 

> media often misapply the term "socialism" to mean a

> top down 

> government.   It's a scare word.<<


Not where I come from. Sounds suspiciously like
capitalism to me.


> I have not, except in one point, denied the

> usefulness of Freire's 

> content.  I think Freire's linguistic  devices are

> unfortunate.<<


As are Kant's, Hegel's, Piaget's, and we could go
on...
 

> And I must ask, why aren't you writing examples of

> Freire's work, 

> translated into your own idiom, in this

discussion?<<

For me it is because I am amazed that one needs
examples. I work in a domain where I see this popular
education/community development happen. All one has to
do is search the net and search the NGO world. When I
see communities in Andhra Pradesh ravaged by HIV/AIDS
organising, and working with NGOS and government
agencies to make changes in their environment for
themselves, that is an excellent example of Freire in
action. When 5-year olds are taught to resolve
conflicts and articulate their demands, I see the
seeds of power being sown. In SIDH when the
organisation is in seamless praxis with communities,
well.. I could go on. Listen, look beyond yourself and
your world and you will find...


> If you think that  

> we need to be talking about Freire's content, why

> don't you do this 

> yourself?  That  would be useful, I think. and  lots

> better than 

> criticizing me for things I didn't say.  It would be

> good for readers 

> of this list serv to  have concrete  examples at

> hand for demystifying 

> Freire.  I would like that immensely. I crave plain

> talk.<<


So, what you are saying that it is plain talk as
defined by you... Plain talk or talk of any kind
varies within the context. My personal example is
having to learn how to address an American audience
and write papers for American professors and accept
that one can get 100% on qualitative exams. How about
expanding the definition of plain talk? 

I have found that there are as many expressions of
Freire as there are programmes. Does not mean I agree
with all of them. I find it hard to see Freire in
action in present day America, yet I am told it
exists. Not in the Adult Literacy Centres I observed.
It was very top down. Definitely not in GED classes,
or even in ESOL classes. My personal research on
learner voice was a real eye opener in terms of the
very existence of learner voice. My interviews with
learners (in more than one American state) showed that
every learner had more than one voice, and not all of
these were shared with the authorities.

I think Andrea, this is turning into an exercise that
could well be semantic hair-splitting. Andres and
David have explained very well what their take on
Freire is. 

Cheers
Ujwala

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:46:22 +0000
From: andreawilder at comcast.net
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 233] Re: GED
 programswithapopulareducationapproach
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
 

Message-ID:
 <010920072146.10099.45A40D2D0009CBC50000277322007504389D0A0B0407990E0A9D0B020E at comcast.net>
 

Peter--

Yes, I think Freire and Fanon belong together.

Thoreau was in and out of his friends' houses in Concord;  he worked as a surveyor;  he eventually earned money as a writer, and he did eventually (I think) take over his family's pencil business, where he invented a new mixture for graphite.

He was developing into a naturalist, and eventually what we would call an ecologist.  I don't think he preached anything but some of his phrases are well known.  He feared for the country because of industrailization, and the despoilization of the Amazon which you mention he would have understood, also.  He was highly educated, college, and taught school for a time.  I think he is important for several reasons, one is the linkage he made between industrialization and destruction of the natural world.  He lived as simply as he could, on Emerson's land.

Peter, do you follow Freirian principles in your work?  If so, what is at the top of your list?  Or does his power lie in describing a reality which  you see also?

An academic point--does anyone know how successful he was in his teaching? That is, did anyone ask this question, whatever  measures might have been used? 

Andrea
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Peter MacMonagle" 


> Colleagues,

> 

> First of all...Why the giant 72pt typeface? 

> 

> Secondly.....In societies like ours where forces in the marketplace and 

> government dictates take over control of the more private areas of people's 

> lives, I believe we have a situation where we need more enlightenment about 

> individual empowerment, not less.  We talk a lot about teaching people to take 

> control of their lives and their careers, but what we are faced with is a 

> capitalist marketplace that removes that control with no input from the people 

> it affects. I am not against capitalism, but I reject the non-regulated 

> marketplace that has removed democratic institutions from our polity.

> 

> Freire took the poorest of the poor in a country ruled by oligarchic families 

> and taught them to read so they could question the injustice of their 

> empoverishment. The military government shut the project down and jailed Freire 

> for the very reason governments have to fear those who question their place in 

> the scheme of things....maintaining power and the money, land, and education 

> that guarantees that power. Read Fanon's Wretched of the Earth for an Algerian's 

> take on this kind of colonialism. And today we have monied interests bulldozing 

> the Amazon over the protests of the indigenous population because they can do so 

> with impunity.

> 

> As for Thoreau, he lived on his own but he was not poor. I believe there is a 

> great difference between people who preach the simple life, but are nowhere near 

> the living reality of oppressed empoverishment under colonial rule whether 

> internal or by external armies and government from afar. This is the invisible 

> safety net white people and colonial governments keep for themselves, and in no 

> way is near what the people (colonialized proletariat, etc) experience.

> 

> Here in the US we have a reproductive education that would keep the status quo 

> because it benefits the middle class and above. Any real Freiren approach is 

> anathema to this social order.  So we can either use Freire's work to help 

> students think for themselves and understand why they can't get ahead, or why 

> the educational goalposts keep moving; or we can educate for a revolution. I 

> doubt that will happen here, because the real voices for change will not be able 

> to overcome the lethargy of the self-satisfied who have found their niche in the 

> social order. Once again...read Frantz Fanon and then apply the thought to the 

> inner city minority students and under-educated here who see their lives in 

> terms of being at the mercy of forces beyond their control. Once again: Katrina 

> is a good example, but it is prevalent everywhere among the marginalized.

> 

> Wm. Peter MacMonagle, M.Ed. 

> Central Piedmont Community College 

> Community Development/Workplace Basic Skills 

> West Campus 2219 

> 704-330-4668 

> 

> "I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world 

> that truly makes living worthwhile?"

> Death thought about it.

> "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice." 

> Terry Pratchett, Sourcery

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Muro, Andres

> Sent: Mon 1/8/2007 11:33 PM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List; The Poverty, 

> Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 223] Re: GED programswithapopulareducationa pproach

>  

> Andrea: Ok, now you have a good question, how can we apply Freire's terminology 

> to our daily work. Which terms would you like to explore specifically? Lets 

> start with a few at the time and maybe different people can share examples of 

> possible Freirian work.

>  

> I wonder if the people from New orleans are around. Margerie and Lou and others 

> were doing these great anti- racist workshops grounded on a lot of Freirian 

> stuff. 

>  

> Andres

> 

> ________________________________

> 

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder

> Sent: Mon 1/8/2007 7:35 PM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 220] Re: GED programs withapopulareducationa pproach

> 

> 

> Andres-- 

> 

> I do not dismiss Freire,. I dismiss the language. Bertha Mo expresses my feeling 

> better than I have. 

> 

> I think anyone in adult literacy should know his work, use it as an analytic 

> frame, see what it highlights, what it leaves out. Not to know Freire is to be 

> low literate in the field. He is a gigantic figure. 

> 

> What I am really interested in, now that we have gotten this far, is how you and 

> others might use his concepts every day, if indeed you do. 

> 

> Back to Thoreau--in Walden he talks about a woodchopper, French-Canadian I 

> think, who boards at a house in the town. What would become of him when he got 

> too old to cut wood, or injured himself with a knife or ax? Thoreau also 

> describes an Irish family who trudge up the road with their goods on their 

> backs, having just sold the boards in their home (shack) to Thoreau. (I think 

> this is accurate.) I know this place, I know these people. Thoreau's idea, in 

> the end, was to make a botanical inventory of Concord--he had started to read 

> Darwin, had read Linnaeus. 

> 

> When I spoke about Richard Cash's views about effective medical intervention, I 

> was thinking about this kind of situation--very local. Often people who talk 

> about theory start from the top and apply it down--I'm not saying you do this, 

> this is just an observation. I am suggesting that we look at the local, and star 

> there to build up. So this is why I am interested, now, in learning how teachers 

> mesh local conditions with their understanding of Freire--or if they don't, and 

> why not. Cash's work has saved literally millions of children. 

> 

> Andrea 

> 

> On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:12 PM, Muro, Andres wrote: 

> 

> 

>  The words that you cite are words to describe concepts and ideas. If you 

> disagree with the concepts and ideas, then that is great. What I am trying to 

> understand is what specifically you don't like about the idea of, say, 

> conscientization or critical praxis, etc. If you disagree with these ideas and 

> you can specify the reason, then we can have a discussion about pedagogy. If you 

> simple disregard them because they get your goat, then you are silencing a 

> conversation. Also, if you have difficulty understanding what Freire meant by 

> these things, then you can always say: "I ain't sure of what he means by 

> "critical praxis" and many will help define this. Then you can say that you 

> don't like the idea of critical praxis because you don't think that people need 

> to know what forces shape their experience before they engage in activity, or 

> you can say that you like the idea and you agree with it. Again, dismissing 

> terms because they get your goat, or they sound Marxist is silencing a 

> conversation before it starts. The process of silencing by saying that something 

> is Marxist, or Passé, without engaging it is undemocratic. I know that that 

> wasn't your intention, but it is the result. Instead of engaging Freire's 

> pedagogy we are arguing with you about process. 

>  

>  I appreciate that you feel more inclined to Thoreau because of his 

> writing references to things that hit home. At the same time, Freire's work is 

> part of the education field. I think that trying to understand Freire is 

> important just like it would be to understand current anatomy and physiology or 

> calculus if you want to be an engineer. 

>  

>  At the same time, if you don't feel like you need to know or understand 

> Freire to be a good educator that is just fine too. However, as I said before, 

> dismissing him on the grounds that he is a Marxist or his language gets your 

> goat is not constructive or conducive to anything. 

>  

>  Andres 

>  

> 

>  From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder 

>  Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 11:45 AM 

>  To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List 

>  Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 207] Re: GED programs with apopulareducationa 

> pproach 

>  

>  Andres-- 

>  

>  It's the language that is associated with Freire, and that Ditmar used, 

> some of it is quotations, I am sincerely grateful for that. I am also grateful 

> for Ditmar embedding definitions in his text. 

>  

>  But to your point, with or without quotations these word get my goat 

> (obviously): class consciousness, class struggle, conscientisation, critical 

> praxis, codification (which I actually usually do like), and pedagogical praxis. 

>  

>  At one point Freire did go around the bend, my opinion, over in Africa, 

> and started to dictate how his workbooks were to be used. TSK. Someone besides 

> me picked this up, I was just reading along and there it was. 

>  

>  By the way, I have I think a CD of Freire talking at Harvard's Ed 

> School. That's ambiguous, I think it is a CD, I know it is at HGSE. 

>  

>  David Rosen's list of attributes in Freirian/popular education teaching 

> was profoundly human and adapted to a pluralistic American zeitgeist, my 

> opinion. 

>  

>  I understand Thoreau, I live near Walden Pond, I know the New England 

> woods. Of course we have somewhat the same background, and MAYBE those who come 

> from S.America feel more of a kinship with the writing style of Freire. Over to 

> you, Andres. (AND WHERE IS THE SNOW?? I need snow to fully appreciate Thoreau.) 

>  

>  Andrea 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>  On Jan 8, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Muro, Andres wrote: 

> 

>   

>   What language are you referring to? 

>     

>   

>   From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder 

>   Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:47 AM 

>   To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List 

>   Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 200] Re: GED programs with a 

> populareducationa pproach 

>     

>   Ditmar and others, 

>     

>   I must put up my small flag here: I absolutely detest the 

> language used in this educational movement. To me, it seems foreign and laid on 

> with a trowel. Am I for social empowerment? Of course. Am I for social movements 

> which try to being about even a modicum of social justice? Absolutely. 

>     

>   Back to the trenches, 

>     

>   Andrea 

>     

>   On Jan 8, 2007, at 7:33 AM, Muro, Andres wrote: 

> 

>      

>    Hi Ujwalla, David, Andrea, Ditmar: 

>      

>    We did a project with our students that has strong 

> Freirian elements. This is an ongoing project with migrant students in which 

> they write their own stories and we publish them. to see this project please 

> visit: 

>      

>    http://bordersenses.com/memorias 

>      

>    While the stories are written in Spanish most of them 

> have been translated. If you want to read the content, please click on each of 

> the books. Also, to understand the theoretical foundation you can read my 

> introduction to both books. They are in English. I kept the introductions very 

> simple without making any references, However, the work is influenced by 

> Freire,Dewey, Giroux, etal. You will see in the intrductions the elements of 

> Freirianism that Ditmar points to. 

>      

>    Andres 

>      

>    From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of 

> ditmar0906_inossian at netzero.net 

>    Sent: Sat 1/6/2007 4:26 PM 

>    To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov 

>    Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 197] Re: GED programs with a 

> popular educationa pproach 

>    

>      

>    Yes, Project Hope's Adult Learners Program uses (or did 

> use) a popular education approach that is distinctly Freireian, and this program 

> was the focus of Lorna's dissertation. For what it's worth, "conscientisation" 

> was the focus of Freire's approach: a process by which a group (not at all about 

> individual empowerment here [think "class struggle"]) becomes aware of their 

> oppression and discovers that they have a popular culture that is both political 

> and social--has a sociopolitical role in history (as Marx understood history). 

> The group learners engage in "critical praxis" or dialogue toward the end of 

> identifying common interests. It's rather like an effort to critique false 

> consciousness through 1) an investigation of the thematic universe (identifying 

> themes); 2) identifying those themes that are "generative"; 3) codification of 

> those generative themes, and 4) dialogue within the cultural circle of learners 

> to interpret those themes (i.e. create meaning). I know this sounds very 

> abstract but one might think of it as a very Marxist-oriented version of the 

> ideology critique that was advanced by the Frankfurt School and later by 

> educational theorists who continue to work in this tradition (e.g. Giroux, 

> Apple, etc.). 

>      

>    Freire's goal was social change, not individual 

> empowerment nor individual transformation. In fact, in my own reading of Freire, 

> he didn't even think that individual transformation was possible. In other 

> words, he never intended for his theory to be used as a means for helping 

> learners function within the given social system. One might argue that if you 


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