Andrea,


> The image I brought up was the image of a marxist

> leninist state, as 

> evidenced by both the USSR and china under Mao. <<


In direct reference to a query about the Marxism you
said Freire fell for.

The images you draw were possibly true for America,
but in India we have had a very different image and
relationship with the ex-USSR. We also have two states
where the state government is socialist/communist.


> There were many 

> discussions in the press about whether  this was

> true marxism or not, 

> or whether marxism existed as a utopian vision

> (utopia = "nowhere.") 

> that could  never  be realized.  The indicators of

> marxism I rattled 

> off are kind of the commonly/popularly held

> attributes of a marxist 

> state.<<


Shall we agree to say American-held? As far as I am
concerned there is no utopian political system;
anywhere. 

 >>So we've got four problems:  1)    popular

> definition, 2)  

> academic definition, 3) actual behavior and 4)

> outcomes

> As spoken about commonly in this country socialism

> has the same problem 

> of definitional incoherence.  It is popularly  used

> as a euphemism for  

> marxism.<<


Socialism has been used as a euphemism in some
countries for Marxism. Just as democracy is popularly
confused with capitalism. But very few people seem to
question or worry about that confusion and the misery
that it brings with it.


>>England's form of health insurance is 

> often described as 

> "socialistic" <<

England's 'health system' (would be laughable if it
weren't so appalling, having recently had the
misfortune of experiencing it!) as 'socialistic':
maybe the confusion is between a "social system of
health care versus socialist"? 


>>in a pejorative way, as is Canada's

> health  system.In 

> this country  the two examples are often talked

> about as "the 

> government taking over." <<


Yes I have seen that discussion. I am also aware of
the numerous Americans who cross the border for their
meds etc... 


>>Yes,   in my opinion there

> is a problem with 

> definitions, I am calling this "definitional

> incoherence."  Where I 

> come from, the United States, it  is used as a scare

> word.<<


I realised that the first time an American asked me if
I'd come to America to escape Communism. I have seen
that completely (to me) irrational fear of a system
people know very little about except through the scare
tactics used successfully by American political
regimes during the Cold War.  However this does not
address your reference to Freire having fallen for
'marxism'. I am still curious about what made you feel
that was a comedown or negative.
 

> In a piece I read about Sao Tome and Principe it

> seemed clear to the 

> critic (examples given) that Freire was  using a top

> down approach  to  

> the use of his workbooks  in teaching.   It

> certainly looked that way 

> to me, also.  I do not have the article at my

> fingertips, but the 

> author as I recall had set out to do a comprehensive

> critique of 

> Freire--i think he was English, maybe Australian,

> not an American, i 

> could be wrong on this.<<


Let me know if you find it? I am curious to read about
it.

 

> Piaget's writing is rather stiff at some points,

> also.  I  think this 

> was a translation, also, that I read.  It is really

> hard to know what 

> an author is saying until  you can see the pertinent

> behaviors<<


Even reading Piaget in French is not easy. He just
wrote (in my opinion) in a complicated manner. There
are very few accurate and beautiful translations of
anyone's work. I have multiple translations of Pablo
Neruda's poems; but some are more appealing than
others. 



> Yes, one needs examples, they are very useful to

> understand exactly how 

> theory  is translated into practice. Your experience

> is obviously 

> really useful in this discussion.<<


I agree.
 

>   Let's take Kerala, of which I  know little, but  I

> do know enough so 

> that I need to learn more--Kerala i have heard 

> talked about informally 

> as having some "communist" aspects.  i don't  know

> what that means, 

> meaning, I don't know what is being referred to, so

> it's a good thing 

> to look at behaviors.<<


Kerala and West Bengal are the two states in India
where the elected state governments have been either
Marxist or Socialist. At no time has the Communist
Party of India held power over the Central government.
They are powerful in other states, but not as powerful
as in Kerala and West Bengal.
 

> Here is a quote from Wikipedia on Kerala:  "Social

> reforms enacted in 

> the late `19th century by Cochin and Travancore were

> expanded upon by 

> post-independence governments, making Kerala among

> the longest-lived, 

> healthiest, most gender-equitable, and most literate

> regions outside of 

>   the developed countries.  However, Kerala's

> suicide rate and 

> unemployment are among India's highest."  I have

> heard before  about 

> the literacy and gender-equity, and have  seen a 

> short  film on 

> Kerala.  I

> am not going to go to India, at least this year,

> instead, you are 

> bringing India to me, which is what I requested, and

>  thank you for it.<<


George Palamattam should have a few things to say on
this subject given he knows it well. But Kerala
systematically educated (in the style of Cuba) it's
people. Malayali society has had a tradition on women
being powerful and some communities are matrilineal,
even today. In the Middle East rush in the 70s,
trained teachers, nurses, physiotherapists, etc from
Kerala were the ones that left in hordes. That
continues now, except the destinations include the US,
the UK etc.


> There may be other examples from people in other

> countries that are 

> parallel to yours.<<


Did you manage to check out the Actionaid site or
contact David Archer?


> I said my goals were surviving, surviving well, and

> living an ordinary 

> life.  These seem to me  pretty good measures of

> theory-in-practice.  I 

> derived them from people who write on development

> and from my own life 

> experience.<<


These are your choices, based on your life experiences
and interpretations of reading/theory. I am loth to
generalise these to everyone though.



> Is your work on learner voice available?<

I presented it at the SCUTREA conference in London in
2002 I think. I'll see if I have a copy of it lying
around.
 

> I wouldn't dream of insulting you or your work, or

> what you are trying 

> to accomplish.<<


Actually I didn't take it for myself. I know you quite
well by now to imagine any insults! I saw it more
directed towards people whose work embodies this
whilst we spend time discussing it. I am learning huge
lessons in humility and in the human spirit every time
I go to the field. I come back thinking how much more
I have to learn, to do, and to give. 

Cheers
Ujwala


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