Ujwala--

Thanks for your email.  When I wrote "fell for"  I was thinking of 
Freire's language, his experience in Sao Tome and Principe as well as 
some words that Howard Zinn used to talk about his former admiration 
for the USSR.

I know that very few people in this country question definitions.  
Short hand language for complex ideas seems to be the norm, and those 
who yell the loudest are listened too most I  think.  The newspapers 
that I subscribe to and read daily are lacking in ANY kind of analysis 
of complex issues. I try to go for the names of particular writers in 
each newspaper (3) who I think actually consider how facts may be 
related to each other.   In my own lingo i call this the "right hand 
left hand problem," after a quote in the New Testament (i think) that 
talks about the  right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.

Yes, democracy is frequently confused with capitalism, when in reality 
they come from  different  domains.

I will let you know when I find the article that critiques Freire.

In your opinion, what does the term "socialism" and marxism" mean when  
applied to Kerala and  West Bengal?  Could you also (this make take a 
little time) explain the relationship between West Bengal and 
Bangladesh as a whole.  i also must say that during my stay in Karachi 
I made friends with the Bengali who grew trees for the Aga Khan 
hospital  complex.  I don't know if he was typical of Bengalis, but to 
me he was very kind, interested in plants, and knowledgeable.

No, I have not yet checked out the Actionaid site or checked with David 
Archer, but I will.

I generalize from what I think is important because 1)  "teacherly 
experience/wisdom" is supposed to be part of  NIFL's support of 
outcomes ( I think), 2)  these are taken from the international 
development literature, 3) 	 this place is as good a place to take a 
stand as any other, and more creditable than most (all?). 4)  at some 
point  it is necessary I think to stand up and say what seems most 
important as your life goals.  And if anyone on this list uses these, 
just please give me the citation.  I m VERY liberal in saying where I 
get my ideas, and I think it is only responsible to cite other people  
when you use their work.  This is obviously a bigger issue than here, 
but  I mention it because many people are pretty casual in this regard, 
my observation.

Yes, IF you have the paper available, could you get it n the web?  or  
email?  or send?

Thanks!!

Andrea		



> Andrea,

>

>> The image I brought up was the image of a marxist

>> leninist state, as

>> evidenced by both the USSR and china under Mao. <<

>

> In direct reference to a query about the Marxism you

> said Freire fell for.

>

> The images you draw were possibly true for America,

> but in India we have had a very different image and

> relationship with the ex-USSR. We also have two states

> where the state government is socialist/communist.

>

>> There were many

>> discussions in the press about whether  this was

>> true marxism or not,

>> or whether marxism existed as a utopian vision

>> (utopia = "nowhere.")

>> that could  never  be realized.  The indicators of

>> marxism I rattled

>> off are kind of the commonly/popularly held

>> attributes of a marxist

>> state.<<

>

> Shall we agree to say American-held? As far as I am

> concerned there is no utopian political system;

> anywhere.

>

>>> So we've got four problems:  1)    popular

>> definition, 2)

>> academic definition, 3) actual behavior and 4)

>> outcomes

>> As spoken about commonly in this country socialism

>> has the same problem

>> of definitional incoherence.  It is popularly  used

>> as a euphemism for

>> marxism.<<

>

> Socialism has been used as a euphemism in some

> countries for Marxism. Just as democracy is popularly

> confused with capitalism. But very few people seem to

> question or worry about that confusion and the misery

> that it brings with it.

>

>>> England's form of health insurance is

>> often described as

>> "socialistic" <<

> England's 'health system' (would be laughable if it

> weren't so appalling, having recently had the

> misfortune of experiencing it!) as 'socialistic':

> maybe the confusion is between a "social system of

> health care versus socialist"?

>

>>> in a pejorative way, as is Canada's

>> health  system.In

>> this country  the two examples are often talked

>> about as "the

>> government taking over." <<

>

> Yes I have seen that discussion. I am also aware of

> the numerous Americans who cross the border for their

> meds etc...

>

>>> Yes,   in my opinion there

>> is a problem with

>> definitions, I am calling this "definitional

>> incoherence."  Where I

>> come from, the United States, it  is used as a scare

>> word.<<

>

> I realised that the first time an American asked me if

> I'd come to America to escape Communism. I have seen

> that completely (to me) irrational fear of a system

> people know very little about except through the scare

> tactics used successfully by American political

> regimes during the Cold War.  However this does not

> address your reference to Freire having fallen for

> 'marxism'. I am still curious about what made you feel

> that was a comedown or negative.

>

>> In a piece I read about Sao Tome and Principe it

>> seemed clear to the

>> critic (examples given) that Freire was  using a top

>> down approach  to

>> the use of his workbooks  in teaching.   It

>> certainly looked that way

>> to me, also.  I do not have the article at my

>> fingertips, but the

>> author as I recall had set out to do a comprehensive

>> critique of

>> Freire--i think he was English, maybe Australian,

>> not an American, i

>> could be wrong on this.<<

>

> Let me know if you find it? I am curious to read about

> it.

>

>

>> Piaget's writing is rather stiff at some points,

>> also.  I  think this

>> was a translation, also, that I read.  It is really

>> hard to know what

>> an author is saying until  you can see the pertinent

>> behaviors<<

>

> Even reading Piaget in French is not easy. He just

> wrote (in my opinion) in a complicated manner. There

> are very few accurate and beautiful translations of

> anyone's work. I have multiple translations of Pablo

> Neruda's poems; but some are more appealing than

> others.

>

>

>> Yes, one needs examples, they are very useful to

>> understand exactly how

>> theory  is translated into practice. Your experience

>> is obviously

>> really useful in this discussion.<<

>

> I agree.

>

>>   Let's take Kerala, of which I  know little, but  I

>> do know enough so

>> that I need to learn more--Kerala i have heard

>> talked about informally

>> as having some "communist" aspects.  i don't  know

>> what that means,

>> meaning, I don't know what is being referred to, so

>> it's a good thing

>> to look at behaviors.<<

>

> Kerala and West Bengal are the two states in India

> where the elected state governments have been either

> Marxist or Socialist. At no time has the Communist

> Party of India held power over the Central government.

> They are powerful in other states, but not as powerful

> as in Kerala and West Bengal.

>

>> Here is a quote from Wikipedia on Kerala:  "Social

>> reforms enacted in

>> the late `19th century by Cochin and Travancore were

>> expanded upon by

>> post-independence governments, making Kerala among

>> the longest-lived,

>> healthiest, most gender-equitable, and most literate

>> regions outside of

>>   the developed countries.  However, Kerala's

>> suicide rate and

>> unemployment are among India's highest."  I have

>> heard before  about

>> the literacy and gender-equity, and have  seen a

>> short  film on

>> Kerala.  I

>> am not going to go to India, at least this year,

>> instead, you are

>> bringing India to me, which is what I requested, and

>>  thank you for it.<<

>

> George Palamattam should have a few things to say on

> this subject given he knows it well. But Kerala

> systematically educated (in the style of Cuba) it's

> people. Malayali society has had a tradition on women

> being powerful and some communities are matrilineal,

> even today. In the Middle East rush in the 70s,

> trained teachers, nurses, physiotherapists, etc from

> Kerala were the ones that left in hordes. That

> continues now, except the destinations include the US,

> the UK etc.

>

>> There may be other examples from people in other

>> countries that are

>> parallel to yours.<<

>

> Did you manage to check out the Actionaid site or

> contact David Archer?

>

>> I said my goals were surviving, surviving well, and

>> living an ordinary

>> life.  These seem to me  pretty good measures of

>> theory-in-practice.  I

>> derived them from people who write on development

>> and from my own life

>> experience.<<

>

> These are your choices, based on your life experiences

> and interpretations of reading/theory. I am loth to

> generalise these to everyone though.

>

>

>> Is your work on learner voice available?<

> I presented it at the SCUTREA conference in London in

> 2002 I think. I'll see if I have a copy of it lying

> around.

>

>> I wouldn't dream of insulting you or your work, or

>> what you are trying

>> to accomplish.<<

>

> Actually I didn't take it for myself. I know you quite

> well by now to imagine any insults! I saw it more

> directed towards people whose work embodies this

> whilst we spend time discussing it. I am learning huge

> lessons in humility and in the human spirit every time

> I go to the field. I come back thinking how much more

> I have to learn, to do, and to give.

>

> Cheers

> Ujwala

>

>

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