Hello Andrew,

Are you having us on? What is a SMOG calculator?
I am really curious now!
Cheers
Ujwala

--- Andrew Pleasant <andrew.pleasant at gmail.com> wrote:


> Hello everyone,

> 

> I realize this string(s) has run its course, but ...

> first I'd like to

> publicly acknowledge the patience all individuals

> have collectively shown in

> this discussion in order to maintain community and

> humanity, openness,

> equality, and collective empowerment.

> 

> Just of curiousity, I ran the last lengthy message

> through an online SMOG

> calculator (very imperfect to be sure, but quick).

> The results --

> 12.9level. I also ran a page of Freire quotes

> through the same

> analysis. The

> results - 10.65 level.

> 

> I think we can see that as interest and excitement

> and defenses and

> intellectual passion and desire to reach shared

> understanding rise, we all

> can slip in our own use of 'plain' language. Perhaps

> while not permanently

> excusing, we can understand (which is a real goal of

> literacy, no?) that

> Freire and Shakespeare and Marx and Foucault and a

> long, long list of other

> great thinkers may have done the same in the passion

> to get their ideas

> across.

> 

> We can become so convinced we are right and that

> everyone 'gets' us, or

> should, that we may forget the power of words, of

> framing ideas, and how

> frames reside not only in the language we encounter

> but are also in the

> language we use. A great challenge across all

> literacy levels is to identify

> our own biases (frames) so we can look past them to

> encounter others and

> other ideas and continue to seek - be it truth,

> justice, personal

> fulfillment, knowledge, or the myriad of other valid

> goals.

> 

> Andrew

> 

> On 1/9/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>

> wrote:

> >

> > Ujwala,

> >

> >

> > The image I brought up was the image of a marxist

> leninist state, as

> > evidenced by both the USSR and china under Mao. 

> There were many

> > discussions in the press about whether  this was

> true marxism or not,

> > or whether marxism existed as a utopian vision

> (utopia = "nowhere.")

> > that could  never  be realized.  The indicators of

> marxism I rattled

> > off are kind of the commonly/popularly held

> attributes of a marxist

> > state.  So we've got four problems:  1)    popular

> definition, 2)

> > academic definition, 3) actual behavior and 4) 

> outcomes.

> >

> > As spoken about commonly in this country socialism

> has the same problem

> > of definitional incoherence.  It is popularly 

> used as a euphemism for

> > marxism.  England's form of health insurance is 

> often described as

> > "socialistic" in a pejorative way, as is Canada's

> health  system.In

> > this country  the two examples are often talked

> about as "the

> > government taking over."  Yes,   in my opinion

> there is a problem with

> > definitions, I am calling this "definitional

> incoherence."  Where I

> > come from, the United States, it  is used as a

> scare word.

> >

> > In a piece I read about Sao Tome and Principe it

> seemed clear to the

> > critic (examples given) that Freire was  using a

> top down approach  to

> > the use of his workbooks  in teaching.   It

> certainly looked that way

> > to me, also.  I do not have the article at my

> fingertips, but the

> > author as I recall had set out to do a

> comprehensive critique of

> > Freire--i think he was English, maybe Australian,

> not an American, i

> > could be wrong on this.

> >

> > Piaget's writing is rather stiff at some points,

> also.  I  think this

> > was a translation, also, that I read.  It is

> really hard to know what

> > an author is saying until  you can see the

> pertinent behaviors

> >

> > Yes, one needs examples, they are very useful to

> understand exactly how

> > theory  is translated into practice. Your

> experience is obviously

> > really useful in this discussion.

> >

> >   Let's take Kerala, of which I  know little, but 

> I do know enough so

> > that I need to learn more--Kerala i have heard 

> talked about informally

> > as having some "communist" aspects.  i don't  know

> what that means,

> > meaning, I don't know what is being referred to,

> so it's a good thing

> > to look at behaviors.

> >

> > Here is a quote from Wikipedia on Kerala:  "Social

> reforms enacted in

> > the late `19th century by Cochin and Travancore

> were expanded upon by

> > post-independence governments, making Kerala among

> the longest-lived,

> > healthiest, most gender-equitable, and most

> literate regions outside of

> >   the developed countries.  However, Kerala's

> suicide rate and

> > unemployment are among India's highest."  I have

> heard before  about

> > the literacy and gender-equity, and have  seen a 

> short  film on

> > Kerala.  I

> > am not going to go to India, at least this year,

> instead, you are

> > bringing India to me, which is what I requested,

> and  thank you for it.

> >

> > There may be other examples from people in other

> countries that are

> > parallel to yours.

> >

> > I said my goals were surviving, surviving well,

> and living an ordinary

> > life.  These seem to me  pretty good measures of

> theory-in-practice.  I

> > derived them from people who write on development

> and from my own life

> > experience.

> >

> > Is your work on learner voice available?

> >

> > I wouldn't dream of insulting you or your work, or

> what you are trying

> > to accomplish.

> >

> > Andrea

> >

> >

> >

> > On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:22 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

> >

> > > Andrea,

> > >

> > >> You asked me what marxism is, and I replied. 

> Did I

> > >> say that Freire

> > >> followed the tenets that I described as

> Marxist? No

> > >> I did not say that.<<

> > >

> > > You said Freire succumbed to Marxism and then

> > > proceeded to define it in terms that brought up

> image

> > > of what Marxism was to you. By virtue of that

> you

> > > implied that is what you felt Freire fell for.

> > >

> > >> There was a lot of discussion about marxism 

> after

> > >> the USSR broke up.

> > >> I remember one guy on a radio talk show saying

> > >> something like this:

> > >> "But marxism has never been tried!"  (Others

> were

> > >> calling the USSR a

> > >> marxist-leninist state.)  He was right,   So

> what

> > >> are we to do with the

> > >>   contradiction?  I  listed the elements  of

> marxism

> > >> as it has been

> 

=== message truncated ===>
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