Andrew,

I hope this string never runs its course, actually.

Would you explain SMOG?   Have you found  it a useful tool?  And why?

On another  point:   I think it is really kind of cavalier to come into 
a conversation that deeply and passionately involves the discussants, 
as it develops,  with a tool that then "proves" someone is right or 
wrong, more or less understandable.  Unless you engage, you are a 
bystander.  I really can't say any more than this.

If you are more knowledgeable about the issues, this is good.

Andrea


On Jan 10, 2007, at 1:28 AM, Andrew Pleasant wrote:


> Hello everyone,

>

> I realize this string(s) has run its course, but ... first I'd like to 

> publicly acknowledge the patience all individuals have collectively 

> shown in this discussion in order to maintain community and humanity, 

> openness, equality, and collective empowerment.

>

> Just of curiousity, I ran the last lengthy message through an online 

> SMOG calculator (very imperfect to be sure, but quick). The results -- 

> 12.9 level. I also ran a page of Freire quotes through the same 

> analysis. The results - 10.65 level.

>

> I think we can see that as interest and excitement and defenses and 

> intellectual passion and desire to reach shared understanding rise, we 

> all can slip in our own use of 'plain' language. Perhaps while not 

> permanently excusing, we can understand (which is a real goal of 

> literacy, no?) that Freire and Shakespeare and Marx and Foucault and a 

> long, long list of other great thinkers may have done the same in the 

> passion to get their ideas across.

>

> We can become so convinced we are right and that everyone 'gets' us, 

> or should, that we may forget the power of words, of framing ideas, 

> and how frames reside not only in the language we encounter but are 

> also in the language we use. A great challenge across all literacy 

> levels is to identify our own biases (frames) so we can look past them 

> to encounter others and other ideas and continue to seek - be it 

> truth, justice, personal fulfillment, knowledge, or the myriad of 

> other valid goals.

>

> Andrew

>

> On 1/9/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote: Ujwala,

>>

>>

>> The image I brought up was the image of a marxist leninist state, as

>> evidenced by both the USSR and china under Mao.  There were many

>> discussions in the press about whether  this was true marxism or not,

>> or whether marxism existed as a utopian vision (utopia = "nowhere.")

>> that could  never  be realized.  The indicators of marxism I rattled

>> off are kind of the commonly/popularly held attributes of a marxist

>> state.  So we've got four problems:  1)    popular definition, 2)

>> academic definition, 3) actual behavior and 4)  outcomes.

>>

>> As spoken about commonly in this country socialism has the same 

>> problem

>> of definitional incoherence.  It is popularly  used as a euphemism for

>> marxism.  England's form of health insurance is  often described as

>> "socialistic" in a pejorative way, as is Canada's health   system.In

>> this country  the two examples are often talked about as "the

>> government taking over."  Yes,   in my opinion there is a problem with

>> definitions, I am calling this "definitional incoherence."  Where I

>> come from, the United States, it  is used as a scare word.

>>

>> In a piece I read about Sao Tome and Principe it seemed clear to the

>> critic (examples given) that Freire was  using a top down approach  to

>> the use of his workbooks  in teaching.   It certainly looked that way

>> to me, also.  I do not have the article at my fingertips, but the

>> author as I recall had set out to do a comprehensive critique of

>> Freire--i think he was English, maybe Australian, not an American, i

>> could be wrong on this.

>>

>> Piaget's writing is rather stiff at some points, also.  I  think this

>> was a translation, also, that I read.  It is really hard to know what

>> an author is saying until  you can see the pertinent behaviors

>>

>> Yes, one needs examples, they are very useful to understand exactly 

>> how

>> theory  is translated into practice. Your experience is obviously

>> really useful in this discussion.

>>

>>   Let's take Kerala, of which I  know little, but  I do know enough so

>> that I need to learn more--Kerala i have heard  talked about 

>> informally

>> as having some "communist" aspects.  i don't  know what that means,

>> meaning, I don't know what is being referred to, so it's a good thing

>> to look at behaviors.

>>

>> Here is a quote from Wikipedia on Kerala:  "Social reforms enacted in

>> the late `19th century by Cochin and Travancore were expanded upon by

>> post-independence governments, making Kerala among the longest-lived,

>> healthiest, most gender-equitable, and most literate regions outside 

>> of

>>   the developed countries.  However, Kerala's suicide rate and

>> unemployment are among India's highest."  I have heard before  about

>> the literacy and gender-equity, and have  seen a  short  film on

>> Kerala.  I

>> am not going to go to India, at least this year, instead, you are

>> bringing India to me, which is what I requested, and  thank you for 

>> it.

>>

>> There may be other examples from people in other countries that are

>> parallel to yours.

>>

>> I said my goals were surviving, surviving well, and living an ordinary

>> life.  These seem to me  pretty good measures of 

>> theory-in-practice.  I

>> derived them from people who write on development and from my own life

>> experience.

>>

>> Is your work on learner voice available?

>>

>> I wouldn't dream of insulting you or your work, or what you are trying

>>  to accomplish.

>>

>> Andrea

>>

>>

>>

>> On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:22 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>>

>> > Andrea,

>> >

>> >> You asked me what marxism is, and I replied.  Did I

>> >> say that Freire

>> >> followed the tenets that I described as Marxist? No

>> >> I did not say that.<<

>> >

>> > You said Freire succumbed to Marxism and then

>> > proceeded to define it in terms that brought up image

>> > of what Marxism was to you. By virtue of that you

>> > implied that is what you felt Freire fell for.

>> >

>> >> There was a lot of discussion about marxism  after

>> >> the USSR broke up.

>> >> I remember one guy on a radio talk show saying

>> >> something like this:

>> >> "But marxism has never been tried!"  (Others were

>> >> calling the USSR a

>> >> marxist-leninist state.)  He was right,   So what

>> >> are we to do with the

>> >>   contradiction?  I  listed the elements  of marxism

>> >> as it has been

>> >> called, and as it has generally been agreed upon in

>> >> talk, newspapers,

>> >> etc.<<

>> >

>> > That does not relate to the discussion right now.

>> > Let's stick to what you said Marxism was and implied

>> > that that was what Freire fell victim to.

>> >

>> >> "Socialism" has an allied problem of definitional

>> >> incoherence. <<

>> > In your interpretation I take it?

>> >

>> >>> The

>> >> media often misapply the term "socialism" to mean a

>> >> top down

>> >> government.   It's a scare word.<<

>> >

>> > Not where I come from. Sounds suspiciously like

>> > capitalism to me.

>> >

>> >> I have not, except in one point, denied the

>> >> usefulness of Freire's

>> >> content.  I think Freire's linguistic  devices are

>> >> unfortunate.<<

>> >

>> > As are Kant's, Hegel's, Piaget's, and we could go

>> > on...

>> >

>> >> And I must ask, why aren't you writing examples of

>> >> Freire's work,

>> >> translated into your own idiom, in this

>> > discussion?<<

>> >

>> > For me it is because I am amazed that one needs

>> > examples. I work in a domain where I see this popular

>> > education/community development happen. All one has to

>> > do is search the net and search the NGO world. When I

>> > see communities in Andhra Pradesh ravaged by HIV/AIDS

>> > organising, and working with NGOS and government

>> > agencies to make changes in their environment for

>> > themselves, that is an excellent example of Freire in

>> > action. When 5-year olds are taught to resolve

>> > conflicts and articulate their demands, I see the

>> > seeds of power being sown. In SIDH when the

>> > organisation is in seamless praxis with communities,

>> > well.. I could go on. Listen, look beyond yourself and

>> > your world and you will find...

>> >

>> >> If you think that

>> >> we need to be talking about Freire's content, why

>> >> don't you do this

>> >> yourself?  That  would be useful, I think. and  lots

>> >> better than

>> >> criticizing me for things I didn't say.  It would be

>> >> good for readers

>> >> of this list serv to  have concrete  examples at

>> >> hand for demystifying

>>  >> Freire.  I would like that immensely. I crave plain

>> >> talk.<<

>> >

>> > So, what you are saying that it is plain talk as

>> > defined by you... Plain talk or talk of any kind

>> > varies within the context. My personal example is

>> > having to learn how to address an American audience

>> > and write papers for American professors and accept

>> > that one can get 100% on qualitative exams. How about

>> > expanding the definition of plain talk?

>> >

>> > I have found that there are as many expressions of

>> > Freire as there are programmes. Does not mean I agree

>> > with all of them. I find it hard to see Freire in

>> > action in present day America, yet I am told it

>> > exists. Not in the Adult Literacy Centres I observed.

>> > It was very top down. Definitely not in GED classes,

>> > or even in ESOL classes. My personal research on

>> > learner voice was a real eye opener in terms of the

>> > very existence of learner voice. My interviews with

>> > learners (in more than one American state) showed that

>> > every learner had more than one voice, and not all of

>> > these were shared with the authorities.

>> >

>> > I think Andrea, this is turning into an exercise that

>> > could well be semantic hair-splitting. Andres and

>> > David have explained very well what their take on

>> > Freire is.

>> >

>> > Cheers

>> > Ujwala

>> >

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