Thanks you, Andrew!  That was really pointed, and funny, and I liked the
gentle way you did this.

Laurie


>>> "Andrew Pleasant" <andrew.pleasant at gmail.com> 1/10/2007 4:58 PM

>>>

Hi,

The SMOG is one of several not incredibly sophisticated yet quick and
easy
to use tools that can help begin parse out the difficulty of language
(English only I think). SMOG stands for Simple Measure of Gobbledygook.
As
I've been accused of being "really kind of cavalier" (hmmm, is that
good or
bad I wonder?) for commenting on an ongoing public dialogue I'll add
little
except  to ask isn't that exactly what listservs are designed to
allow?

ap

On 1/10/07, Ujwala Samant <lalumineuse at yahoo.com> wrote:

>

> Hello Andrew,

>

> Are you having us on? What is a SMOG calculator?

> I am really curious now!

> Cheers

> Ujwala

>

> --- Andrew Pleasant <andrew.pleasant at gmail.com> wrote:

>

> > Hello everyone,

> >

> > I realize this string(s) has run its course, but ...

> > first I'd like to

> > publicly acknowledge the patience all individuals

> > have collectively shown in

> > this discussion in order to maintain community and

> > humanity, openness,

> > equality, and collective empowerment.

> >

> > Just of curiousity, I ran the last lengthy message

> > through an online SMOG

> > calculator (very imperfect to be sure, but quick).

> > The results --

> > 12.9level. I also ran a page of Freire quotes

> > through the same

> > analysis. The

> > results - 10.65 level.

> >

> > I think we can see that as interest and excitement

> > and defenses and

> > intellectual passion and desire to reach shared

> > understanding rise, we all

> > can slip in our own use of 'plain' language. Perhaps

> > while not permanently

> > excusing, we can understand (which is a real goal of

> > literacy, no?) that

> > Freire and Shakespeare and Marx and Foucault and a

> > long, long list of other

> > great thinkers may have done the same in the passion

> > to get their ideas

> > across.

> >

> > We can become so convinced we are right and that

> > everyone 'gets' us, or

> > should, that we may forget the power of words, of

> > framing ideas, and how

> > frames reside not only in the language we encounter

> > but are also in the

> > language we use. A great challenge across all

> > literacy levels is to identify

> > our own biases (frames) so we can look past them to

> > encounter others and

> > other ideas and continue to seek - be it truth,

> > justice, personal

> > fulfillment, knowledge, or the myriad of other valid

> > goals.

> >

> > Andrew

> >

> > On 1/9/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Ujwala,

> > >

> > >

> > > The image I brought up was the image of a marxist

> > leninist state, as

> > > evidenced by both the USSR and china under Mao.

> > There were many

> > > discussions in the press about whether  this was

> > true marxism or not,

> > > or whether marxism existed as a utopian vision

> > (utopia = "nowhere.")

> > > that could  never  be realized.  The indicators of

> > marxism I rattled

> > > off are kind of the commonly/popularly held

> > attributes of a marxist

> > > state.  So we've got four problems:  1)    popular

> > definition, 2)

> > > academic definition, 3) actual behavior and 4)

> > outcomes.

> > >

> > > As spoken about commonly in this country socialism

> > has the same problem

> > > of definitional incoherence.  It is popularly

> > used as a euphemism for

> > > marxism.  England's form of health insurance is

> > often described as

> > > "socialistic" in a pejorative way, as is Canada's

> > health  system.In

> > > this country  the two examples are often talked

> > about as "the

> > > government taking over."  Yes,   in my opinion

> > there is a problem with

> > > definitions, I am calling this "definitional

> > incoherence."  Where I

> > > come from, the United States, it  is used as a

> > scare word.

> > >

> > > In a piece I read about Sao Tome and Principe it

> > seemed clear to the

> > > critic (examples given) that Freire was  using a

> > top down approach  to

> > > the use of his workbooks  in teaching.   It

> > certainly looked that way

> > > to me, also.  I do not have the article at my

> > fingertips, but the

> > > author as I recall had set out to do a

> > comprehensive critique of

> > > Freire--i think he was English, maybe Australian,

> > not an American, i

> > > could be wrong on this.

> > >

> > > Piaget's writing is rather stiff at some points,

> > also.  I  think this

> > > was a translation, also, that I read.  It is

> > really hard to know what

> > > an author is saying until  you can see the

> > pertinent behaviors

> > >

> > > Yes, one needs examples, they are very useful to

> > understand exactly how

> > > theory  is translated into practice. Your

> > experience is obviously

> > > really useful in this discussion.

> > >

> > >   Let's take Kerala, of which I  know little, but

> > I do know enough so

> > > that I need to learn more--Kerala i have heard

> > talked about informally

> > > as having some "communist" aspects.  i don't  know

> > what that means,

> > > meaning, I don't know what is being referred to,

> > so it's a good thing

> > > to look at behaviors.

> > >

> > > Here is a quote from Wikipedia on Kerala:  "Social

> > reforms enacted in

> > > the late `19th century by Cochin and Travancore

> > were expanded upon by

> > > post-independence governments, making Kerala among

> > the longest-lived,

> > > healthiest, most gender-equitable, and most

> > literate regions outside of

> > >   the developed countries.  However, Kerala's

> > suicide rate and

> > > unemployment are among India's highest."  I have

> > heard before  about

> > > the literacy and gender-equity, and have  seen a

> > short  film on

> > > Kerala.  I

> > > am not going to go to India, at least this year,

> > instead, you are

> > > bringing India to me, which is what I requested,

> > and  thank you for it.

> > >

> > > There may be other examples from people in other

> > countries that are

> > > parallel to yours.

> > >

> > > I said my goals were surviving, surviving well,

> > and living an ordinary

> > > life.  These seem to me  pretty good measures of

> > theory-in-practice.  I

> > > derived them from people who write on development

> > and from my own life

> > > experience.

> > >

> > > Is your work on learner voice available?

> > >

> > > I wouldn't dream of insulting you or your work, or

> > what you are trying

> > > to accomplish.

> > >

> > > Andrea

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:22 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

> > >

> > > > Andrea,

> > > >

> > > >> You asked me what marxism is, and I replied.

> > Did I

> > > >> say that Freire

> > > >> followed the tenets that I described as

> > Marxist? No

> > > >> I did not say that.<<

> > > >

> > > > You said Freire succumbed to Marxism and then

> > > > proceeded to define it in terms that brought up

> > image

> > > > of what Marxism was to you. By virtue of that

> > you

> > > > implied that is what you felt Freire fell for.

> > > >

> > > >> There was a lot of discussion about marxism

> > after

> > > >> the USSR broke up.

> > > >> I remember one guy on a radio talk show saying

> > > >> something like this:

> > > >> "But marxism has never been tried!"  (Others

> > were

> > > >> calling the USSR a

> > > >> marxist-leninist state.)  He was right,   So

> > what

> > > >> are we to do with the

> > > >>   contradiction?  I  listed the elements  of

> > marxism

> > > >> as it has been

> >

> === message truncated ===>

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