Andrew--

I use the American Heritage Dictionary to look up words, it also 
includes roots back to Indo-European.

I go by a rule of thumb:  anyone who speaks up is part of the action.

Andrea

On Jan 11, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Laurie Sheridan wrote:


> Thanks you, Andrew!  That was really pointed, and funny, and I liked 

> the

> gentle way you did this.

>

> Laurie

>

>>>> "Andrew Pleasant" <andrew.pleasant at gmail.com> 1/10/2007 4:58 PM

>>>>

> Hi,

>

> The SMOG is one of several not incredibly sophisticated yet quick and

> easy

> to use tools that can help begin parse out the difficulty of language

> (English only I think). SMOG stands for Simple Measure of Gobbledygook.

> As

> I've been accused of being "really kind of cavalier" (hmmm, is that

> good or

> bad I wonder?) for commenting on an ongoing public dialogue I'll add

> little

> except  to ask isn't that exactly what listservs are designed to

> allow?

>

> ap

>

> On 1/10/07, Ujwala Samant <lalumineuse at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>

>> Hello Andrew,

>>

>> Are you having us on? What is a SMOG calculator?

>> I am really curious now!

>> Cheers

>> Ujwala

>>

>> --- Andrew Pleasant <andrew.pleasant at gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>>> Hello everyone,

>>>

>>> I realize this string(s) has run its course, but ...

>>> first I'd like to

>>> publicly acknowledge the patience all individuals

>>> have collectively shown in

>>> this discussion in order to maintain community and

>>> humanity, openness,

>>> equality, and collective empowerment.

>>>

>>> Just of curiousity, I ran the last lengthy message

>>> through an online SMOG

>>> calculator (very imperfect to be sure, but quick).

>>> The results --

>>> 12.9level. I also ran a page of Freire quotes

>>> through the same

>>> analysis. The

>>> results - 10.65 level.

>>>

>>> I think we can see that as interest and excitement

>>> and defenses and

>>> intellectual passion and desire to reach shared

>>> understanding rise, we all

>>> can slip in our own use of 'plain' language. Perhaps

>>> while not permanently

>>> excusing, we can understand (which is a real goal of

>>> literacy, no?) that

>>> Freire and Shakespeare and Marx and Foucault and a

>>> long, long list of other

>>> great thinkers may have done the same in the passion

>>> to get their ideas

>>> across.

>>>

>>> We can become so convinced we are right and that

>>> everyone 'gets' us, or

>>> should, that we may forget the power of words, of

>>> framing ideas, and how

>>> frames reside not only in the language we encounter

>>> but are also in the

>>> language we use. A great challenge across all

>>> literacy levels is to identify

>>> our own biases (frames) so we can look past them to

>>> encounter others and

>>> other ideas and continue to seek - be it truth,

>>> justice, personal

>>> fulfillment, knowledge, or the myriad of other valid

>>> goals.

>>>

>>> Andrew

>>>

>>> On 1/9/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>

>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> Ujwala,

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> The image I brought up was the image of a marxist

>>> leninist state, as

>>>> evidenced by both the USSR and china under Mao.

>>> There were many

>>>> discussions in the press about whether  this was

>>> true marxism or not,

>>>> or whether marxism existed as a utopian vision

>>> (utopia = "nowhere.")

>>>> that could  never  be realized.  The indicators of

>>> marxism I rattled

>>>> off are kind of the commonly/popularly held

>>> attributes of a marxist

>>>> state.  So we've got four problems:  1)    popular

>>> definition, 2)

>>>> academic definition, 3) actual behavior and 4)

>>> outcomes.

>>>>

>>>> As spoken about commonly in this country socialism

>>> has the same problem

>>>> of definitional incoherence.  It is popularly

>>> used as a euphemism for

>>>> marxism.  England's form of health insurance is

>>> often described as

>>>> "socialistic" in a pejorative way, as is Canada's

>>> health  system.In

>>>> this country  the two examples are often talked

>>> about as "the

>>>> government taking over."  Yes,   in my opinion

>>> there is a problem with

>>>> definitions, I am calling this "definitional

>>> incoherence."  Where I

>>>> come from, the United States, it  is used as a

>>> scare word.

>>>>

>>>> In a piece I read about Sao Tome and Principe it

>>> seemed clear to the

>>>> critic (examples given) that Freire was  using a

>>> top down approach  to

>>>> the use of his workbooks  in teaching.   It

>>> certainly looked that way

>>>> to me, also.  I do not have the article at my

>>> fingertips, but the

>>>> author as I recall had set out to do a

>>> comprehensive critique of

>>>> Freire--i think he was English, maybe Australian,

>>> not an American, i

>>>> could be wrong on this.

>>>>

>>>> Piaget's writing is rather stiff at some points,

>>> also.  I  think this

>>>> was a translation, also, that I read.  It is

>>> really hard to know what

>>>> an author is saying until  you can see the

>>> pertinent behaviors

>>>>

>>>> Yes, one needs examples, they are very useful to

>>> understand exactly how

>>>> theory  is translated into practice. Your

>>> experience is obviously

>>>> really useful in this discussion.

>>>>

>>>>   Let's take Kerala, of which I  know little, but

>>> I do know enough so

>>>> that I need to learn more--Kerala i have heard

>>> talked about informally

>>>> as having some "communist" aspects.  i don't  know

>>> what that means,

>>>> meaning, I don't know what is being referred to,

>>> so it's a good thing

>>>> to look at behaviors.

>>>>

>>>> Here is a quote from Wikipedia on Kerala:  "Social

>>> reforms enacted in

>>>> the late `19th century by Cochin and Travancore

>>> were expanded upon by

>>>> post-independence governments, making Kerala among

>>> the longest-lived,

>>>> healthiest, most gender-equitable, and most

>>> literate regions outside of

>>>>   the developed countries.  However, Kerala's

>>> suicide rate and

>>>> unemployment are among India's highest."  I have

>>> heard before  about

>>>> the literacy and gender-equity, and have  seen a

>>> short  film on

>>>> Kerala.  I

>>>> am not going to go to India, at least this year,

>>> instead, you are

>>>> bringing India to me, which is what I requested,

>>> and  thank you for it.

>>>>

>>>> There may be other examples from people in other

>>> countries that are

>>>> parallel to yours.

>>>>

>>>> I said my goals were surviving, surviving well,

>>> and living an ordinary

>>>> life.  These seem to me  pretty good measures of

>>> theory-in-practice.  I

>>>> derived them from people who write on development

>>> and from my own life

>>>> experience.

>>>>

>>>> Is your work on learner voice available?

>>>>

>>>> I wouldn't dream of insulting you or your work, or

>>> what you are trying

>>>> to accomplish.

>>>>

>>>> Andrea

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:22 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Andrea,

>>>>>

>>>>>> You asked me what marxism is, and I replied.

>>> Did I

>>>>>> say that Freire

>>>>>> followed the tenets that I described as

>>> Marxist? No

>>>>>> I did not say that.<<

>>>>>

>>>>> You said Freire succumbed to Marxism and then

>>>>> proceeded to define it in terms that brought up

>>> image

>>>>> of what Marxism was to you. By virtue of that

>>> you

>>>>> implied that is what you felt Freire fell for.

>>>>>

>>>>>> There was a lot of discussion about marxism

>>> after

>>>>>> the USSR broke up.

>>>>>> I remember one guy on a radio talk show saying

>>>>>> something like this:

>>>>>> "But marxism has never been tried!"  (Others

>>> were

>>>>>> calling the USSR a

>>>>>> marxist-leninist state.)  He was right,   So

>>> what

>>>>>> are we to do with the

>>>>>>   contradiction?  I  listed the elements  of

>>> marxism

>>>>>> as it has been

>>>

>> === message truncated ===>

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