Just to clarify quickly.  Lily wasn't my only source of information.  And I'll admit I didn't speak to Lily's boyfriend who was in jail at the time.  One of the victim's family members didn't think Lily was guilty.  Not sure if that changes things for you though.
 
--Dominique
  

________________________________

From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Kearney Lykins
Sent: Fri 2/16/2007 11:19 AM
To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 525] Re: Bars, Boundaries,and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces



Janet,




First, I am assuming that when Dominique related Lily's tale to us that she put her best foot forward. That is, seeing that she is attempting to persuade me, she wrote her post in a way that was most favorable to her larger point about the injustices she perceives among the incarcerated. Second, I don't know what details Dominique knows about the case, but according to her post, most, if not everything she knows about Lily's case was obtained from Lily. Lily is not an objective source of information about her own case. Third, Dominique herself told us in her original post that her attitudes toward the incarcerated changed once she got to know them. In other words her relationships influenced her reasoning. Fourth, Dominique sees the world through a feminist lens. Together, these factors lead me to conclude that I should treat the evidence presented with due diligence. It would be unreasonable for me to do otherwise. 

This is not a case of me confusing the facts with opinion, as you seem to suggest. Rather, this is a case of me assigning varying weights to the evidence and its source, especially where only one version and one source have been heard from.


Sincerely,
Kearney


 
----- Original Message ----

From: Janet Isserlis <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu>
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 10:31:21 AM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 523] Re: Bars, Boundaries, and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces

Kearney

What I'm trying to get at is the fact that Dominique knows the details of the case in question.  Clearly, she can speak for herself and speak to the question at hand, but my point is that I don't see how her proximity to the defendant has any bearing on the accuracy of her statements.

I would posit that none of us are completely objective, but I would also suggest that we are very capable of relating facts and differentiating them from analysis and opinion.



________________________________

From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 522] Re: Bars, Boundaries, and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces

Janet,

All I know about the case is what Dominique has related to us. I am not speaking to the justice of the verdict, nor am I defending it. What I am questioning is Dominique's objectivity of the case owing to her proximity to the defendant. Is this not relavant, and feasible?

Kearney
 

----- Original Message ----
From: Janet Isserlis <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu>
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 9:52:55 AM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 521] Re: Bars, Boundaries, and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces

Re: [PovertyRaceWomen 516] Re: Bars, Boundaries, and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces Kearney,

"the spell of the imprisoned"?

I find it amazing that you feel capable of speaking to the veracity/accuracy of a verdict about which you know absolutely nothing.  Why is it not sufficient to accept Dominique's account of the verdict.

I appreciate that you bring a particular point of view to the list, and good for you for engaging in discussion.  What feels far less engaging, though, is your dismissal of Dominique's account of the verdict, and your subsequent dismissive analysis of restorative justice and the inmate's own reasons for participating in it.

Janet



________________________________

From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:12:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 516] Re: Bars, Boundaries, and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces

Dominique, 

     It is apparent that you have been touched by Lily's account of the circumstances surrounding her case. As an outsider though I see elements of her story that preclude me taking such a sympathetic stance. For instance, it is difficult for me to believe that a jury found her guilty of Accessory to Murder for merely being in the car. That is not a crime.  What is a crime is the failure to report a murder. Or hiding a weapon. Or discarding evidence. Or lying to the police during the investigation. As you mention, no one even knew she was in the car. How could they have known, if, as you say, she didn't report what she saw or heard. Perhaps her charge was reduced from obstructing justice to a lesser charge of A to M. Also, what is her motivation for participating in the restorative justice program if indeed all she was guilty of was "sitting in the car?" What had she to feel guilty about?  What was there to confess to the victim's family? What exactly would be in her power to restore?  What I am ultimately suggesting is that because of your proximity to her, and because of your teacher's heart, you may have fallen under the spell of the imprisoned.  That the jailer's sarcasm, "I know, I know, there aren't any guilty people in prison" has become more true than most people think. I don't mean to insult you here, because I am sure you have reflected on how your relationship with her may have influenced your judgment, but to me this seems to be a real possibility.  Do you wonder what your opinion of her would be if you spent an equal amount and quality of time with her boyfriend? With the victim's family? With others who knew her well at age16? 

However, Dominique, in the end even though I do not see her case through the same lens as you, I don't think it even matters. That is, I still see the need to provide her literacy training as part of her rehabilitation during her incarceration. I'm one who desires prison to be an unpleasant place, yet a place where one can grow and depart it being stronger for the experience. 

And this brings me to answering your question about what motivates me in the literacy field. In the broadest terms, as an ESOL teacher I simply want to help people who want to be helped. I want to help them become proficient in English so that they may improve their chances of realizing their goals, so that they may more fully participate in American society and reap every reward they can. I view their learning in personal terms of self-confidence, accomplishment, freedom, and assimilation. And I want them to benefit themselves and others in a public way; I want my society to benefit from their participation, which happens more fully as they become more fluent.  

Sincerely,
  Kearney 
 
----- Original Message ----
From: "Chlup, Dominique" <dchlup at tamu.edu>
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:25:51 PM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 498] Re: Bars, Boundaries, and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces

           
Hi Kearney ,

 

Thanks for the opportunity to respond to your very thought provoking questions.  Since I suspect we have very different philosophical viewpoints on working with incarcerated populations, I am happy to see that you are genuinely open to dialoguing with me.   And I thank other individuals (Esther, Donna, and Janet) who have already been very articulate in providing some specific examples to your questions. 

 

I'll admit that until I actually started teaching in a prison, I, too, might have subscribed to the "criminals make their own bed" theory.   Only now I have first hand accounts not only from the women themselves, but from my friends who are lawyers that make me question that theory.  I also might have believed that prison was supposed to be about punishment as you suggest, but I no long prescribe to that theory.  There used to be a prevailing concept in this country that prison was about rehabilitation.  Sentencing was the punishment, not your day-to-day existence in prison.  You were sentenced to a certain amount of time away from the "free" world.  You were supposed to spend time in prison working toward rehabilitation.  You were disenfranchised while imprisoned, but once you returned to society the right to vote was restored to you (this isn't always the case now).  You were not to be denied medical treatment and preventative care.  These are rights that many women do not possess once they are incarcerated.  The reformatory movement for women in this country began in 1869 (this is when the first statutory provision for separate prisons for men and women were passed prior to that time they were housed together) and was premised on the fact that prison was not supposed to be a "hell above ground" as once described by a chaplain visiting a women's prison.  Nor was it supposed to be a "tour of hell" as former Massachusetts Bill Weldon once expressed in the 1990s that he wanted prisons under his watch to be.  This is how "punishment" often gets played out in women's prisons, and since I know that these women will return to society and be my next door neighbors, I would prefer that the emphasis not be a punitive one.   

 

To address some of the specific question you pose, I think I'll try to do that by sharing with you a concrete example of a woman inmate who I tutored one on one, so I was very familiar with her case.  I've written about Lily (a pseudonym) elsewhere, so I know she is okay with me sharing her story.  Lily has spent her entire adult life in prison.  She was arrested at 16 and convicted on the day before her 18th birthday, which meant she was treated as an adult during her sentencing.  The judge in her case took seriously the words her mother used to describe her "unladylike, uncontrollable behavior".  The only problem is that Lily's mom had not seen her daughter in 7 years. When Lily was 11 her mother left her with her grandmother. She hadn't seen her since.  Lily's grandmother was too sick to testify on Lily's behavior and in fact, she died the week that Lily began her prison sentence.  Lily's crime, she was in the car when her boyfriend entered a house and murdered someone they both knew.  She was seen as an accessory to the murder. At first, no one knew Lily had been in the car; her boyfriend turned her in to shave years off his own sentence.  And he will actually get released before she does.  Now, you might expect that Lily would be angry and take no responsibility for her actions (I'm not sure I would have), but she actually does take responsibility for making the choice to date someone like her boyfriend who she knew was violent and abusive.  She takes responsibility for being there that day.  She takes responsibility for not doing more when she heard her boyfriend joking about potentially killing someone some day.  And when I met her she was participating in the restorative justice programs offered through her prison. 

 

Just briefly restorative justice programs are designed for offenders to demonstrate remorse for their actions, accept responsibility for their actions, and this is accomplished by actually meeting with their victims or their victims' families.  To quote the Restorative Justice Online Website:  "The emphasis is on restoration: restoration of the offender in terms of his or her self-respect, restoration of the relationship between offender and victims, as well as restoration of both offenders and victims within the community."  This is a rehabilitative, restorative approach, as opposed to a punitive approach, and I am an advocate of it.    Kearney , if you aren't familiar with restorative justice as a concept, I think it might get at your question regarding personal responsibility and self-improvement as it is designed not just for offender self-improvement but for victim and community improvement.  

 

You might feel differently than I do about Lily's case, and that's fine I can respect that, but I feel this is a woman who will spend most of her adult life in prison because of mandatory sentencing laws and because with these laws mitigating circumstances are not allowed. These are laws that have been enacted in the last 20 years and have resulted in large jumps in incarceration rates for women:  8 per 100,000 in 1975 to 59 per 100,000 in 2001 (Sheldon and Brown, 2003).  I think Lily's actions were criminalized by a mother who didn't know her and a judicial process that didn't want to get to know her. (Lily was a straight A high school student, and after getting her GED in prison she began working on a college degree, a degree that she raised money and helped pay for herself).  I think she was working with a judicial system that marginalized her by the fact that she had a judge that refused to let it be entered into evidence that Lily hadn't seen her mother in 7 years.  Lily had no money for a lawyer, so she had a court appointed lawyer who had very little experience and only met with Lily once before her trial began (resources being withheld-her middle-upper class counterparts would have been able to get the best lawyer money could buy).

 

I wish I could say that Lily was an exception, but I have worked with inmates in NY, MA, and I am now getting ready to do so here in TX, and I've seen several of these types of cases.  I would really recommend the book the Color of Justice for the research that demonstrates how certain races and ethnicities, mainly African Americans and Latinos are routinely given longer sentences than their white counterparts.  I have a longer list of book resources that deal specifically with how race, poverty levels, educational attainment, and gender do make a difference when it comes to the justice system.  If I can find that list, I will post it.  

 

I also want to remind folks that there was a time in the U.S. history (as late as the 1960s) when women were arrested and sentenced for pre-marital sex, having a baby out of wedlock, even being out after dark if it suggested promiscuity (lewd and lascivious carriage). All of these were criminal offenses, but it is interesting to note that their male counterparts were not sentenced to serve time.  Arrested, sometimes, but seldom convicted.  Women were expected to stay at home and be good wives (a prevailing dominant social order during that time period), but instead their actions were criminalized.  So I think it is knowing that history and knowing how it is still informing contemporary practice that motivates me to do the work that I do.  I'm not trying to excuse anyone's actions, but I do want to show the ways in which the system is more complicated and nuanced than it might first appear.  I approach that from a feminist perspective because for me feminism isn't about "society-blaming" but rather about equity and parity for all individuals.  I'd recommend bell hooks' Feminism is for Everybody to get a sense of where I am coming from with my feminist approach.  And for what it is worth, my boyfriend (whom I refer to as my partner and he dislikes that) said I should be honest and let everyone know that I'm not really about equality, but rather that I prescribe to female superiority.  I hope that made you laugh rather than cringe Kearney !  I hope it made everyone laugh.  

 

Anyway, thanks again for asking the tough questions and being open to my responses.  You really got me thinking this morning.  And I would love to know, what does motivate you to do the important work that you do with your adult literacy learners?

 

Best,

Dominique   


________________________________

From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] <mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov%5D>  <mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov%5D> <mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov%5D>   On Behalf Of Kearney Lykins
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:09 PM
To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 489] Re: Bars, Boundaries,and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces

 

Dominique,

I commend your literacy work with female prisoners. As one who does not subscribe to feminist theory however, I am struggling to comprehend some of your claims regarding your student population. Please help me understand what you mean for example when you say, "in the name of maintaining dominant social order, certain resources and privileges are concentrated in some groups, which marginalize and criminalize others." 

Which resources are being wrongly withheld from whom, and by whom?  
Given the notion that prison is indeed punishment, which warranted privileges are being unjustly denied to who, and again, by whom? 
Who is marginalizing whom, and what is the nature of this marginalization? 
Also, given that criminals make their own bed, that is, by definition it is they who have broken the law, how is it possible that they were "criminalized" by anyone other than themselves?

Finally, when teaching and motivating inmate learners, how do you reconcile the personal responsibility element inherent in any successful self-improvement program (which, by my way of thinking includes literacy programs) with the society-blaming elements that inform feminist theory?


I am genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts on these specifics, so that I might better understand what motivates you, contrasted with what motivates me in my work, as a fellow literacy practitioner (who's not a feminist!)

 Kearney Lykins
ESOL Teacher
 Virginia Beach , VA
 

Kearney_Lykins at yahoo.com



 

----- Original Message ----
From: " Chlup, Dominique " < dchlup at tamu.edu >
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 1:13:21 AM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 479] Re: Bars, Boundaries, and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces

First, I have to admit that I have been a "lurker" on this discussion list for quite sometime.  In all of my time lurking I think I have posted twice, so when Daphne asked me to consider being a guest facilitator I have to admit that I was excited but also a bit leery of leaving behind the safety net of reading others' postings and becoming actively involved in the discussion.  I see this, though, as my risk for the week, so I want to invite all of the other "lurkers" along with the regular posters on the list to feel free to post this week.  I welcome the opportunity to dialogue with everyone.

Now onto the discussion...

When colleagues ask me about my work and the challenges I face researching women student-inmates, one of the first things I reveal to them is how I struggle with the barrier of writing about topics and women who live lives that are far removed from my day to day life.  I am the one with perceived authority, access, and the privilege of going "home" at night, and I try never to forget that.  

When I first entered a prison classroom, I naively expected to find women who were very different from me, but they weren't.  Yes, their institutionalized lives were different from mine, but I was immediately struck by how my students could easily have been my mother, sister, grandmother, best friend, or me.  It didn't take long for me to realize that prison spaces demonstrate a convergence of disadvantage based on racial, class, and gender inequality.  All of the women I have ever had the privilege of working with were arrested for offenses associated with problems of addiction, poverty, and domestic abuse. Whatever preconceptions I had of women prisoners, I quickly realized were misconceptions based largely on stereotypes and misinformation.  I now believe that in the name of maintaining dominant social order, certain resources and privileges are concentrated in some groups, which marginalize and criminalize others.  

Many of the stories I have researched, witnessed, and heard over the years regarding the treatment of women inmates, offend my democratic sensibilities.  I have cried, laughed, dreamed, and hoped with my students (both the ones that I have actually had in class and those whom I have only researched in the prison archives).  I have been rendered speechless when accosted by individuals who don't understand why I have chosen to do the work that I do.  One woman, whom I struck up a conversation with on a very long line for the bathroom at a wedding remarked, "I hope my taxpayer money isn't going to pay for that education program."  

I informed her that for the most part the prisoners were raising the money to keep classes going.  The education programs had been the first thing cut when prison budget restructuring had occurred.  "Good" was all she said before getting off the line and walking away from me.  I still struggle with the challenge of facing critics and what to say to them.  I also struggle with the objectives of "giving voice to the voiceless," "sharing untold stories," and "portraying prison life."  While these objectives, decidedly feminist ones, are in keeping with why I began this work, I am not sure they should be the reasons that keep me invested in this work.  I question:  Who am I to be telling these women's stories?  What right do I have?  What right do any of us have if we are not women prisoners ourselves?  

I have begun this discussion by sharing a bit of my story from the social context of working with women inmates.  I hope you will feel free to respond to any of the points or issues I have raised.  But I also wonder about the struggles and challenges each of you face either researching or working in women's spaces.  What would you describe as the biggest barrier or boundary you face in your work?  How do you deal with these bars, boundaries, and barriers?


--Dominique


Dominique T. Chlup
Director of the Texas  Center for the Advancement of Literacy and Learning  (TCALL) &
Assistant Professor of Adult Education
 Texas A&M University 
www-tcall.tamu.edu

________________________________

From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg
Sent: Fri 2/9/2007 2:52 PM
To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 468] Bars, Boundaries,and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces



Reminder about Guest Facilitator:
(please invite friends and colleagues to join by telling them to
subscribe, and later unsubscribe at:
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen )

Starting this Monday, Feb. 12th and continuing through Friday Feb.
16th, Dominique Chlup will be facilitating a discussion on:

Bars, Boundaries, and Barriers Researching Women's Spaces

If you have time and are interested, I highly recommend that you check
out the following links where you can find two examples of Dominique's
writings. The articles are not long, and I think that you will find them
interesting and full of thought provoking ideas:
http://www.ncsall.net/?id=828
and
http://www.ncsall.net/?id=826

In case you want to know more about our guest facilitator, here is a
short blurb about her:

Dominique Chlup is an assistant professor of adult education and the
director of the Texas  Center for the Advancement of Literacy and
Learning (TCALL) at Texas A&M University.She got her "calling" to be
an
adult educator after volunteering for a year at the Valhalla Women's
Jail in New York . She taught in the "Right to Write" program.  While
her
career has taken her into several other adult classrooms, she finds
she
returns again and again to her work with women student-inmates.  She
wrote a
dissertation on the history of the educational programs and practices
at
the Framingham Reformatory for Women in Massachusetts , and she
continues
to research contemporary prison programs.  As a part of her research
with women inmates, she has encountered both literal and figurative
bars.  As such, she is always interested in dialoging with others
about
their own experiences researching and working in women's spaces.  To
learn more about her work, you can read

http://www.ncsall.net/?id=828
and
http://www.ncsall.net/?id=826

Please invite your friends and colleagues to join us during this
"discussion." If they want to temporarily join us, they can subscribe
and then later unsubscribe at:
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

Daphne



Daphne Greenberg
Assistant Professor
Educational Psych. & Special Ed.
 Georgia State University
 P.O. Box 3979
 Atlanta , Georgia 30302-3979
phone: 404-651-0127
fax:404-651-4901
 dgreenberg at gsu.edu

Daphne Greenberg
Associate Director
Center for the Study of Adult Literacy
 Georgia State University
 P.O. Box 3977
 Atlanta , Georgia 30302-3977
phone: 404-651-0127
fax:404-651-4901
 dgreenberg at gsu.edu
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