I have never managed to articulate something about this without later 
contradicting myself.

For example, the FN students, women particularly are pretty quiet - until 
you get them by thenselves in a group that doesn't contain elders. Why they 
are quiet in class, even when I've done everything I can to make it safe and 
there are mostly First Nations and even mostly women - various theories - 
they have never been e\ncouraged to talk and often (in  individual 
situations) punished for talking
AND/Or
they value talk so much more than we do - what you say is powerful and has a 
lot of effect and people hear your words and take them to heart and learn 
from them over the years the way water wears at stone over the years

Another example is how present their culture seems (at least in this small 
city where they are still 10% of the total population and some of the town 
is on Band Land) - the big house season, the obeying the elders, parents, 
etc., the arts and crafts, the valuing of children, the identifying with 
nature, etc.
on the other hand  the culture they observe is all thoroughly mixed up with 
christianity and white values from contact (like the dominance of men and 
the present system of government which deletes the role of the mothers)

This last is also an example of how diffucult i find it to have opinions 
that don't seem racist - I certainly have opinions about the white, 
patriarchial, adversarial system of government and almost expect corruption 
in it - including in Band Council - all of which many many students agree 
with - but I have opionions too about many of the teachings of particular 
elders (especially when they seem products not of "their" culture but of 
mine - attitudes about what women should take from their husbands or about 
gays and lesbians which some of them abhor and cast out. How do I know on 
what the elders are basing their teachings (they certainly don't "explain" 
and "argue" in ways I'm familiar with - they repeat, tell stories, infer, 
etc. - the idea is for the listener to figure a lot out for themselves) and 
how do i sit in the same room when they"teach" these attitudes when the few 
days previous I was "teaching" acceptance.

Well I need to quit because I want to go back and put caveats on about 6 
points in what I've already said - until I'm tangled in caveats. So I mostly 
keep quiet, and the two streams flow along sometimes together, sometimes in 
a muddy mix.

Thanks for asking.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>
To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List" 
<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 11:32 PM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 877] Re: treatment of women around the world



> Welcome out of the lurk mode!

> Can you share your insights on working with First

> Nations learners?

>

> Thanks

> Ujwala

> --- Evelyn Battell <battelle at shaw.ca> wrote:

>

>> I'm a lurker in this discusion but I really

>> appreciate the insights and

>> experiences you are relating - since I live in rural

>> Canada mostly my

>> students have included very few "Asians" - but all

>> your wardings about be

>> careful with cultural sensitivites certainly apply

>> to my work with the First

>> Nations students who are most of my student body - I

>> notice that I have not

>> announced I'm white - another assumption I make all

>> the time.

>> Thanks again.

>> ----- Original Message ----- 

>> From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>

>> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy

>> Discussion List"

>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>> Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 4:12 PM

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 874] Re: treatment of

>> women around the world

>>

>>

>> > Hello,

>> >

>> >> Great discussion on an important subject.  I've

>> read

>> >> about most  of the

>> >> problems around the world brought up in the

>> >> discussion and am not  surprised to

>> >> hear of the ones I hadn't.  They all seem to be

>> >> alike anyway.  I agree with

>> >> those who say that it will take a major

>> movement,

>> >> or a combination of efforts, at

>> >> various geopolitical levels to  combat these

>> >> atrocities.<<

>> >

>> > For most part, I agree, but I believe that the

>> efforts

>> > need to come from within, not an externally

>> imposed

>> > view.

>> >

>> >

>> >> In various assignments with the Air Force during

>> my

>> >> thirty-plus year  career,

>> >> I served in several areas where women were

>> >> restricted and/or  exploited.  I

>> >> was in Saudi Arabia when we had a base there in

>> the

>> >> late  1950's (yes, I'm old)

>> >> and was aware that local women did not get out

>> much

>> >> and  had to be veiled in

>> >> back from head to foot when they did. <<

>> >

>> > I am a bit concerned by your statement because the

>> > assumption is that they protested or did not want

>> to

>> > be veiled. I find it equally disturbing to see

>> bare

>> > flesh everywhere. Why is being covered up seen as

>> more

>> > disturbing that seeing flesh? I find the way that

>> most

>> > cultures in seriously warm countries have a more

>> > appropriate way of dressing to cope with the heat

>> than

>> > those that live in cold countries. Nobody seems to

>> > protest the European women who wear scarves to

>> cover

>> > their heads or Amish women who dress in long black

>> > frocks.... the familiar is easier to understand

>> and

>> > condone than the unfamiliar? And we won't discuss

>> > priests and nuns in their frankly scary black

>> attire

>> > and lifestyle!

>> >

>> >>>We also read

>> >> about and discussed the

>> >> ways in which the males dominated the culture

>> ("just

>> >>  say, 'I divorce thee,'

>> >> three times and you're single.") <<

>> >

>> > I am not sure if you are aware of this but it is

>> not

>> > as simple as that. Islam requires witnesses,

>> credible

>> > witnesses in public when a man says that to a

>> woman.

>> > Like with all religions, men have co-opted and

>> > translated religion to suit their needs and

>> fancies.

>> > Males do dominate cultures, everywhere. I find

>> that in

>> > some cultures, the domination is more obvious than

>> > others. You are not single, you are divorced. And

>> in

>> > Islam, unlike say Hinduism, being divorced is

>> > traumatic, BUT you can marry again. Should we

>> assume,

>> > by the same token, that, given the high divorce

>> rates

>> > in the west, that the words "I do" mean as little

>> as

>> > saying "I divorce thee"?

>> >

>> >>>During the

>> >> Vietnam War era, I spent three

>> >> years in Thailand (accompanied by my family,

>> >> fortunately), and still became

>> >> aware of the "bar-girl culture" that existed in

>> >> Thailand, Vietnam, and Laos. <<

>> >

>> > I am sincerely optimistic that your family and you

>> > learned more about Thai culture than merely the

>> > bar-girl culture....

>> >

>> >>>The

>> >> American military only gave a big boost  to an

>> >> already existing economy.

>> >> Many of these young girls were sold by  their

>> >> families and were virtual slaves of

>> >> the bar owners.<<

>> >

>> > For more information, please check out the ECPAT

>> and

>> > Anti-Slavery International websites? When I

>> interned

>> > at the International Peace Bureau, Geneva, I read

>> some

>> > horrific reports by Irish priests about the sex

>> > holidays taken by Westerners. During the tsunami,

>> one

>> > of the biggest problems was children who

>> disappeared.

>> > Unfortunately, only the Swedish boy who was taken

>> by a

>> > German (I think) tourist made the news, here in

>> > France. The American military not only gave a

>> solid

>> > boost, it helped keep quite a few people in

>> business

>> > and as you said, now tourism continues to maintain

>> it.

>> >

>> >> Incidentally, here is a stab at answering the

>> recent

>> >> question of what is an

>> >> Asian (or Asia?).  On the west side, I believe

>> Iran

>> >> is considered part  of

>> >> Asia, while Iraq and Turkey are part of Europe

>> (I'm

>> >> looking at a  National

>> >> Geographic map of the world).  From the Northeast

>> >> border of Iran, go north on the

>> >> Caspian shore to the eastern border of

>> Kazakhstan.

>> >> Trace it to the Ural

>> >> Mountains which run north to the Arctic  Ocean.

>> >> Everything east that is Asia all

>> >> the way to Japan and the  Philippine Islands.  I

>> >> can't say how for South to go

>> >> into the  Indonesian Archipelago which could

>> Pacific

>> >> Islanders, but that leaves

>> >> the part  of Malaysia on the mainland up the air

>> as

>> >> they're the same people

>> >> that are in  the islands.  Anyway, that's pretty

>> >> close.<<

>> >

>> > I just won the UK's Asian Women of Achievement

>> Award

>> > for Social and Humanitarian work. In their terms,

>> Asia

>> > includes:(and I quote, or cut and paste)

>> >

>> > [1] any part of the national territory of a

>> country

>> > with national territory on the African-Eurasian

>> land

>> > mass, excluding Europe and Africa. The boundary

>> with

>> > Europe is taken to be the most direct line

>> connecting

>> > the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmora, the

>> Bosphorus,

>> > the Black Sea, the ridges of the Caucasus, the

>> Caspian

>> > Sea, the Ural River, and the Ural Mountains, to

>> Novaya

>> > Zemlya. The boundary with Africa is taken to be

>> the

>> > line of the Suez Canal. and

>> >

>>

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

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