[PovertyRaceWomen 1276] Another name for the list
David J. Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net
Tue Oct 2 16:06:50 EDT 2007
Colleagues,
How about as a name for the list:
Differences: color, gender, privilege, first language, sexual
orientation and other characteracteristics that make a difference for
students and teachers in adult literacy education
The discussion list could be referred to as "Literacy and
Differences". In its description it might list examples of issues
affecting students and teachers who are women, low-income, African
American, immigrants whose first language is not English, lesbians
and gay men, and other issues.
Some will notice that I added teachers in. Many adult education
teachers, particularly those who piece together part-time non-
benefited jobs. And teachers may themselves face issues of racism or
color prejudice, sexual orientation prejudice and first language
prejudice.
David J. Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net
On Oct 2, 2007, at 1:53 PM, Michael Tate wrote:
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> From: "Michael Tate" <mtate at sbctc.edu>
> Date: October 2, 2007 1:53:54 PM EDT
> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1267] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol
> 12, Issue 1
> Reply-To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
>
> Hello Everyone!
>
>
>
> Earlier in this discussion I suggested “privilege” be in the
> listserv name. Rather than focusing on the symptoms like poverty,
> privilege allows us to study the cause: what group/privilege is
> being protected, who benefits and how does the privilege system work.
>
>
>
> The apartheid system is a good example. Anyone (regardless of skin
> color) could be reclassified into the “In” group or the “Out”
> group. A Black friend of mine who was in the Peace Corps in
> Lesotho was re-classified “honorary White” by the South African
> government so he could participate in Peace Corps training events
> in South Africa. He was able to eat at restaurants, stay in
> hotels, etc., because of the classification. For sure, he was
> challenged at every door, but once he showed his papers, he was
> allowed in.
>
>
>
> People who objected to the apartheid system often found themselves
> re-classified as Black, or as “Colored”, the term used for
> Indians, Chinese and others who were in South Africa. If they
> persisted, they could be jailed, or killed.
>
>
>
> Likewise, those Blacks and “Coloreds” who help defend the privilege
> system were rewarded with re-classification. The classification
> system which began as a racial system was modified to allow for
> “general acceptance” and “close association” criteria as well as,
> or instead of, skin color. This also provides “cover” for the
> regime when it is attacked as being racist. They could trot out
> the re-classified exceptions, and argue that the others are just
> “malcontents who don’t have what is needed to succeed”.
>
>
>
> Understanding the true workings and motives allows for purposeful
> challenges to the privilege system.
>
>
>
> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:povertyracewomen-
> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:54 AM
> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1264] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol
> 12, Issue 1
>
>
>
> Well, Andres, there is a problem. We have a concept of poverty and
> of gender that matches (mostly) an agreed upon reality "Race" is a
> concept without a valid empirical form. Try to apply it.
>
>
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
> On Oct 2, 2007, at 11:30 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:
>
>
>
> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology.
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> For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit
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> http://ses.symantec.com/
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> From: "Muro, Andres" <amuro5 at epcc.edu>
>
> Date: October 2, 2007 11:30:36 AM EDT
>
> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1262] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol
> 12, Issue 1
>
> Reply-To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
>
>
> I don’t think that many people like the term race, or like to talk
> about it. I don’t like it either. But we live in a racist society
> and a racist world. I think that we need to talk about it to
> promote change. From a Freirian perspective we need to name the
> things that are wrong, denounce them and announce alternatives.
>
>
>
> Andres
>
>
>
>
>
> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:povertyracewomen-
> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder
>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:58 AM
>
> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1259] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol
> 12, Issue 1
>
>
>
> I don't like the "race" moniker. What does it do for us? We more or
> less have the same gene bank, we came from the same place, east
> Africa, Some stayed in Africa, moved south, some moved west in
> Africa, some popped out up north, spread (probably) both
> directions, east and west, etc.
>
>
>
> Is there anyone on this list who self-identifies as Black American
> or coming from an African country? If there is, what do you want?
>
>
>
> As for "white,"when the principal of the school where I worked as
> an administrator labeled me as "white," I was offended. I said:
> "What are you, black?" He was (still is) a Cuban Jew. He didn't
> know what to say, but there was a very clear dividing line in his
> mind, and I belonged to the mass of "white people."
>
>
>
> There are people in Africa who are not black in skin color--the !
> Koisan.
>
>
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
> On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:18 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:
>
>
>
> I said that I liked the terms poverty and women being there. Let me
> articulate. The word women is there because, I believe that this
> group emerged from a women and literacy group that was sort of the
> product of a conference started in Georgia and a literacy effort by
> Laubach.
>
>
>
> Anyways, traditionally, when we think of themes, we think of them
> genderless, and that means men. While this is may not be
> intentional, because men dominate public spaces their circumstances
> and experiences are accounted for with more frequency in all
> fields, when gender is not define, maleness is implied.
>
>
>
> I think the idea of women and literacy was to require people to
> think about the unique circumstances the women face in our field as
> educators, administrator, and students. The circumstances are
> indeed unique. this is not to say that we shouldn't talk about
> men's issues in this group, but the focus was to create a space
> that focused on women's issues. And believe me, men are not shy
> about talking about their issues when they want to.
>
>
>
> Deborah brings an important point, and that is the LGTBQ. They are
> often voiceless in society and those with limited literacy face
> greater barriers. So, I think that gender is an important term. and
> ought to be there. Yet, both for historical reasons, and for the
> unique and important role that women have in literacy we must keep
> the term "women' there. There are other six or seven listserves and
> the don't have a gender identified. Usually, when that happens, it
> often means just men.
>
>
>
> Regarding race, I think that it is an important term because it
> also focuses on racism. Yet, it does not exclude ethnicity. While
> race defined traditionally means white, black, yellow the three
> supposedly main races, the term has evolved to be more associated
> with ethnicity and culture. Yet, at the same time is more poignant
> and more indusive to dialogue about issues of racism. I think that
> it remind us that we still live in a racist society (an that also
> means ethnicist) and forces us to aknowledge it. And, while we all
> feel uncomfortable talking about it, it still reminds us of this
> fact. Ethnicity is neither as poignant nor as subversive and it
> does not make us uncomfortable. And while that may be better for
> some, we should not forget that many spaces are indeed racist and
> we should hopefully leave the space open for exploring this.
>
>
>
> In a way, ethnicity is a less loaded term and it is not often
> associated with ethnicism. It is more of a celebratory term used to
> talk about differences in a superficial way. For example, we have
> international day at the local university and we have Hispanic
> week, and we have Greek festival, etc. These are events that
> celebrate the multiple ethnicities that this country has, and there
> is very subtle racism in this. When it is not Hispanic week, black
> history month, and the Greek festival, it is something else. It is
> white time. And this is white male time. and this is reflected in
> the literature, our history, our politics and the texts that tell
> us about this.
>
>
>
> So, hopefully, this group will preserve those terms that makes it,
> at least in the surface, slightly subversive and a little more
> uncomfortable. Gender and ethnicity are nice and make us all feel
> more comfy. It is like the old, well worn pair of jeans and flannel
> shirt. Women and race make us all feel a little uncomfortable as
> if something is not quite right that we need to talk about more.
> so, lets get out of our comfy spaces and talk about this.
>
>
>
> Andres
>
> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Crystal Anika
> Cuby
>
> Sent: Mon 10/1/2007 3:13 PM
>
> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
>
> Cc: ccuby1 at student.gsu.edu
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1252] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol
> 12, Issue 1
>
>
>
>
> I agree with John on this issue. Because, not only does the use of
> the term gender include male issues in respect to their responses
> towards women, it is also useful for other groups who may not
> identify with a particular gender (i.e. the transgender population)
> who may not be included in a female heading. In the day and age of
> "political correctness" it is important to include all groups as
> we may encounter them in our learning environment. Their voices
> and needs should be heard as well and hearing different experiences
> here may help all of us in the future. Just my two cents.
>
>
>
> Crystal Cuby Richardson
>
> Doctoral Student
>
> Georgia State University
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov
>
> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
>
> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:00:07 -0400
>
> Subject: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 12, Issue 1
>
>
>
> Send PovertyRaceWomen mailing list submissions to
>
> povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
>
>
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>
> povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov
>
>
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>
> povertyracewomen-owner at nifl.gov
>
>
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>
> than "Re: Contents of PovertyRaceWomen digest..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>
>
> 1. [PovertyRaceWomen 1238] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 11,
>
> Issue 45 (John Warrior)
>
> 2. [PovertyRaceWomen 1239] Re (Andrea Wilder)
>
> 3. [PovertyRaceWomen 1240] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 11,
>
> Issue 45 (Ujwala Samant)
>
> 4. [PovertyRaceWomen 1241] (no subject) (Gail Spangenberg)
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:52:02 -0500
>
> From: "John Warrior" <john.r.warrior at cox.net>
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1238] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 11,
>
> Issue 45
>
> To: <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
> Message-ID: <000d01c8039b$5f40de00$0301a8c0 at JOHNANDJUDY>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> I am here to through in my perspective. When I
>
> signed up for this list, I had certain
>
> expectations about the content. Specifically, I
>
> expected to see comments and experiences about how
>
> income, ethnicity and gender affect literacy and
>
> English language learning.
>
>
>
> As I see it, the name should reflect the message
>
> of this page. Poverty can affect men and women
>
> alike. However, ethnicity is evolving to something
>
> new in the United States. We have what I will call
>
> the "traditional" ethnic challenges our nation has
>
> struggled with since our founding. However, there
>
> are changes that are coming too. For example, I
>
> have African students from the Congo, Angola and
>
> Zimbabwe in my classes. Their needs and challenges
>
> are different than those faced by
>
> African-Americans. Likewise, I have Caucasian
>
> students from Lebanon, Turkey, Belarus, Ukraine
>
> and Russia that face ethnic challenges in the
>
> community, which often go unnoticed because they
>
> are "white." So, my question would be, is the
>
> purpose of this list to open discussion to
>
> contemporary ethnic needs within the US or to
>
> focus upon our "traditional" needs, which have not
>
> been resolved yet.
>
>
>
> Tied in with this is the socioeconomic status of
>
> these people. We have a wide range of needs in the
>
> US, from the Spanish-speaking students who either
>
> drop out or receive a sub-standard education
>
> because of inadequate resources. Another group
>
> includes people, such as teenage mother, who drop
>
> out of school in order to care for their child.
>
> They fall into the trap of no education, no skills
>
> and no money. Then there are the groups of
>
> immigrants that include individuals who are not
>
> literate in their primary language as well as
>
> others who have graduate degrees. All of them are
>
> struggling to earn a living with meager resources
>
> and due to poor language skills or the lack of
>
> education and training. What parameters is this
>
> group going to discuss and does "race" accurately
>
> describe them?
>
>
>
> Finally, and what seems to be the most contested
>
> point of the name is whether to include or change
>
> "women" in the title. I can't say I completely
>
> share the same views and opinions as those I have
>
> read. However, I have seen the challenges that
>
> some women have due to real or perceived barriers.
>
> These are real issues that provide specific
>
> challenges to learning. I can think of a lot of
>
> reasons to keep it in the title. I can also think
>
> of many reasons to change it to gender. Gender
>
> does affect language learning and education. One
>
> example of how males can affect the classroom
>
> involves an issue one of our new teachers
>
> encountered this semester. She had three Middle
>
> Eastern men in her class who refused to
>
> acknowledge her authority as their instructor.
>
> This attitude also extended to many of their
>
> female classmates. I know that this is not the
>
> first time it has happened and that we do not have
>
> the highest concentration of Middle Eastern
>
> students. So, my question is, does this list want
>
> to focus on the specific needs of women and
>
> literacy or include it as part of how gender
>
> affects literacy?
>
>
>
> As for me, vote tips toward gender, and it is not
>
> because I am a man, but because I have seen how
>
> gender issues affect both men and women and how it
>
> would be useful for other professionals to have a
>
> site to come to in order to ask questions about
>
> gender issues that we face. If these instructors
>
> see "women" in the title they may not bring up
>
> challenges they face with male students.
>
>
>
> John Warrior
>
>
>
> PS. On a personal note, I feel any stereotype is
>
> dangerous and destructive to our society. Labeling
>
> all men as either actively or passively sexist is
>
> not fair or accurate. I wish everyone could get
>
> passed their stereotypes and prejudices about
>
> race, social status or gender. Let's try to
>
> overcome the existing problems without creating
>
> new ones.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
>
> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On
>
> Behalf Of povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov
>
> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:00 AM
>
> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
>
> Subject: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 11, Issue 45
>
>
>
> Send PovertyRaceWomen mailing list submissions to
>
> povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
>
>
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide
>
> Web, visit
>
>
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
>
> 'help' to
>
> povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov
>
>
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>
> povertyracewomen-owner at nifl.gov
>
>
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
>
> is more specific
>
> than "Re: Contents of PovertyRaceWomen digest..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>
>
> 1. [PovertyRaceWomen 1237] Re: Women (Muro,
>
> Andres)
>
> 2. [PovertyRaceWomen 1238] Re: Women (Muro,
>
> Andres)
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:16:18 -0600
>
> From: "Muro, Andres" <amuro5 at epcc.edu>
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1237] Re: Women
>
> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy
>
> Discussion List"
>
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>, "The
>
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy
>
> Discussion List"
>
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
> Message-ID:
>
> <CA29C5E82B801844A7A967D109F117CF278C96 at svrascmail
>
> 01>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
> I like the term women being in there.
>
>
>
> Andres
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf
>
> of Andrea Wilder
>
> Sent: Sat 9/29/2007 8:08 PM
>
> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy
>
> Discussion List
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1233] Re: Women
>
>
>
>
> Thank you Katherine and Dahlia--Gender would be OK
>
> with me, too. I
>
> don't often hear life from the men's side,
>
> specified as from the men's
>
> side, not just a neutral English construction.
>
> That of course would
>
> mean that men spoke up as men on men's issues.
>
> That would be
>
> interesting and educational. Also women would
>
> need to acknowledge
>
> men's speech as from men--definitely a novelty and
>
> potentially a very
>
> interesting idea.
>
>
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2007, at 9:04 PM, Katherine G wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Thank you, Andrea and all for your thoughts.
>
> It's interesting the way
>
> > we
>
> > interpret gender and its manifestations through
>
> words. Historically,
>
> > I have
>
> > preferred gender neutral labels as they aspire
>
> to be all inclusive, so
>
> > that's where my thought process comes from.
>
> >
>
> > Many, many great ideas on titles, so we shall
>
> see what is decided!
>
> >
>
> > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
>
> > [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov]On
>
> Behalf Of Andrea Wilder
>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 8:30 PM
>
> > To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy
>
> Discussion List
>
> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1231] Re: Women
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Katherine--
>
> >
>
> > How about this. Charles Dickens divorced his
>
> wife after 10 children
>
> > in 16 years. The wife, Catherine, gave letters
>
> to her daughter to be
>
> > published--that showed that Dickens had loved
>
> her once upon a time.
>
> > The daughter, Kate, almost burned them.
>
> Instead, she consulted George
>
> > Bernard Shaw.",,,she liked the story of a great
>
> man mismated and
>
> > dragged down by an inferior woman. Shaw did
>
> not. He argued that 'the
>
> > sentimental sympathy of the nineteenth century
>
> with the man of genius
>
> > tied to a commonplace wife had been rudely upset
>
> by a writer named
>
> > ibsen''."
>
> >
>
> > Ibsen and Shaw wrote against absorption.
>
> >
>
> > Andrea
>
> >
>
> > On Sep 28, 2007, at 10:29 PM, Katherine G wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> Andrea, do you really feel that absorbed if the
>
> word "women" is not
>
> >> used?
>
> >> Do other women on this list feel that way as
>
> well? I'm just
>
> >> curious--not
>
> >> judging in the least. I guess I don't fully
>
> understand it.
>
> >>
>
> >> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
>
> >> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
>
> >> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov]On
>
> Behalf Of Andrea Wilder
>
> >> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 9:20 PM
>
> >> To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The
>
> Poverty Race
>
> >> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1225] Women
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Well, what can I say.
>
> >>
>
> >> I don't want to give up the WOMEN designation
>
> to be absorbed, once
>
> >> again. So the "women" should be left in the
>
> name of the list serv.
>
> >> When we are absorbed, we become MEN once again.
>
> My epiphany of the
>
> >> week.
>
> >>
>
> >> Thanks, Daphne...i await a Solomonic decision.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Andrea
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> >> National Institute for Literacy
>
> >> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> >> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> >>
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> >> National Institute for Literacy
>
> >> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> >> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> >>
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> > National Institute for Literacy
>
> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> >
>
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>
> men
>
> >
>
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> > National Institute for Literacy
>
> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> >
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
> >
>
>
>
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>
> --
>
> National Institute for Literacy
>
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 2
>
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:18:21 -0600
>
> From: "Muro, Andres" <amuro5 at epcc.edu>
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1238] Re: Women
>
> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy
>
> Discussion List"
>
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>, "The
>
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy
>
> Discussion List"
>
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
> Message-ID:
>
> <CA29C5E82B801844A7A967D109F117CF278C97 at svrascmail
>
> 01>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
> I also like the word race being in there and the
>
> word poverty.
>
>
>
> Andres
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf
>
> of Andrea Wilder
>
> Sent: Sat 9/29/2007 8:08 PM
>
> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy
>
> Discussion List
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1233] Re: Women
>
>
>
>
> Thank you Katherine and Dahlia--Gender would be OK
>
> with me, too. I
>
> don't often hear life from the men's side,
>
> specified as from the men's
>
> side, not just a neutral English construction.
>
> That of course would
>
> mean that men spoke up as men on men's issues.
>
> That would be
>
> interesting and educational. Also women would
>
> need to acknowledge
>
> men's speech as from men--definitely a novelty and
>
> potentially a very
>
> interesting idea.
>
>
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2007, at 9:04 PM, Katherine G wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Thank you, Andrea and all for your thoughts.
>
> It's interesting the way
>
> > we
>
> > interpret gender and its manifestations through
>
> words. Historically,
>
> > I have
>
> > preferred gender neutral labels as they aspire
>
> to be all inclusive, so
>
> > that's where my thought process comes from.
>
> >
>
> > Many, many great ideas on titles, so we shall
>
> see what is decided!
>
> >
>
> > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
>
> > [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov]On
>
> Behalf Of Andrea Wilder
>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 8:30 PM
>
> > To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy
>
> Discussion List
>
> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1231] Re: Women
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Katherine--
>
> >
>
> > How about this. Charles Dickens divorced his
>
> wife after 10 children
>
> > in 16 years. The wife, Catherine, gave letters
>
> to her daughter to be
>
> > published--that showed that Dickens had loved
>
> her once upon a time.
>
> > The daughter, Kate, almost burned them.
>
> Instead, she consulted George
>
> > Bernard Shaw.",,,she liked the story of a great
>
> man mismated and
>
> > dragged down by an inferior woman. Shaw did
>
> not. He argued that 'the
>
> > sentimental sympathy of the nineteenth century
>
> with the man of genius
>
> > tied to a commonplace wife had been rudely upset
>
> by a writer named
>
> > ibsen''."
>
> >
>
> > Ibsen and Shaw wrote against absorption.
>
> >
>
> > Andrea
>
> >
>
> > On Sep 28, 2007, at 10:29 PM, Katherine G wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> Andrea, do you really feel that absorbed if the
>
> word "women" is not
>
> >> used?
>
> >> Do other women on this list feel that way as
>
> well? I'm just
>
> >> curious--not
>
> >> judging in the least. I guess I don't fully
>
> understand it.
>
> >>
>
> >> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
>
> >> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
>
> >> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov]On
>
> Behalf Of Andrea Wilder
>
> >> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 9:20 PM
>
> >> To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The
>
> Poverty Race
>
> >> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1225] Women
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Well, what can I say.
>
> >>
>
> >> I don't want to give up the WOMEN designation
>
> to be absorbed, once
>
> >> again. So the "women" should be left in the
>
> name of the list serv.
>
> >> When we are absorbed, we become MEN once again.
>
> My epiphany of the
>
> >> week.
>
> >>
>
> >> Thanks, Daphne...i await a Solomonic decision.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Andrea
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> >> National Institute for Literacy
>
> >> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> >> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> >>
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> >> National Institute for Literacy
>
> >> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> >> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> >>
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> > National Institute for Literacy
>
> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> >
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
> >
>
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> > National Institute for Literacy
>
> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> >
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
> >
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> National Institute for Literacy
>
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> National Institute for Literacy
>
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> To unsubscribe or change your subscription
>
> settings, please go to
>
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> men
>
>
>
> End of PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 11, Issue 45
>
> ************************************************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 2
>
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:55:59 -0400
>
> From: Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1239] Re
>
> To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race
>
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
> Message-ID: <e9e442286b291a65e81020e29b19b667 at comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
>
> I like "gender" and I prefer "ethnicity." to "race." When all is said
>
> and done, I think John's points are thoughtful and ultimately useful
>
> for us in the long run.
>
>
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 3
>
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
>
> From: Ujwala Samant <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1240] Re: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 11,
>
> Issue 45
>
> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"
>
> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
> Message-ID: <788118.27094.qm at web55113.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
> Dear John,
>
>
>
> Very well put, thanks!
>
>
>
> I have only one concern with the use of the term
>
> 'gender'. I agree with John and Andrea, that it
>
> includes both, men and women. Often thought in my
>
> experiences, the term 'gender' in common and
>
> professional parlance, has come to represent the
>
> causes of women. I think more research needs to be
>
> done on the role, the psychology of men, rather than
>
> sociological and traditional thinking that so
>
> prevailed in the 1990s . If we use the term gender,
>
> then we all need to be aware of John's PS: be
>
> inclusive and not tar all men with the same brush.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ujwala
>
>
>
>
>
> --- John Warrior <john.r.warrior at cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I am here to through in my perspective. When I
>
> > signed up for this list, I had certain
>
> > expectations about the content. Specifically, I
>
> > expected to see comments and experiences about how
>
> > income, ethnicity and gender affect literacy and
>
> > English language learning.
>
> >
>
> > As I see it, the name should reflect the message
>
> > of this page. Poverty can affect men and women
>
> > alike. However, ethnicity is evolving to something
>
> > new in the United States. We have what I will call
>
> > the "traditional" ethnic challenges our nation has
>
> > struggled with since our founding. However, there
>
> > are changes that are coming too. For example, I
>
> > have African students from the Congo, Angola and
>
> > Zimbabwe in my classes. Their needs and challenges
>
> > are different than those faced by
>
> > African-Americans. Likewise, I have Caucasian
>
> > students from Lebanon, Turkey, Belarus, Ukraine
>
> > and Russia that face ethnic challenges in the
>
> > community, which often go unnoticed because they
>
> > are "white." So, my question would be, is the
>
> > purpose of this list to open discussion to
>
> > contemporary ethnic needs within the US or to
>
> > focus upon our "traditional" needs, which have not
>
> > been resolved yet.
>
> >
>
> > Tied in with this is the socioeconomic status of
>
> > these people. We have a wide range of needs in the
>
> > US, from the Spanish-speaking students who either
>
> > drop out or receive a sub-standard education
>
> > because of inadequate resources. Another group
>
> > includes people, such as teenage mother, who drop
>
> > out of school in order to care for their child.
>
> > They fall into the trap of no education, no skills
>
> > and no money. Then there are the groups of
>
> > immigrants that include individuals who are not
>
> > literate in their primary language as well as
>
> > others who have graduate degrees. All of them are
>
> > struggling to earn a living with meager resources
>
> > and due to poor language skills or the lack of
>
> > education and training. What parameters is this
>
> > group going to discuss and does "race" accurately
>
> > describe them?
>
> >
>
> > Finally, and what seems to be the most contested
>
> > point of the name is whether to include or change
>
> > "women" in the title. I can't say I completely
>
> > share the same views and opinions as those I have
>
> > read. However, I have seen the challenges that
>
> > some women have due to real or perceived barriers.
>
> > These are real issues that provide specific
>
> > challenges to learning. I can think of a lot of
>
> > reasons to keep it in the title. I can also think
>
> > of many reasons to change it to gender. Gender
>
> > does affect language learning and education. One
>
> > example of how males can affect the classroom
>
> > involves an issue one of our new teachers
>
> > encountered this semester. She had three Middle
>
> > Eastern men in her class who refused to
>
> > acknowledge her authority as their instructor.
>
> > This attitude also extended to many of their
>
> > female classmates. I know that this is not the
>
> > first time it has happened and that we do not have
>
> > the highest concentration of Middle Eastern
>
> > students. So, my question is, does this list want
>
> > to focus on the specific needs of women and
>
> > literacy or include it as part of how gender
>
> > affects literacy?
>
> >
>
> > As for me, vote tips toward gender, and it is not
>
> > because I am a man, but because I have seen how
>
> > gender issues affect both men and women and how it
>
> > would be useful for other professionals to have a
>
> > site to come to in order to ask questions about
>
> > gender issues that we face. If these instructors
>
> > see "women" in the title they may not bring up
>
> > challenges they face with male students.
>
> >
>
> > John Warrior
>
> >
>
> > PS. On a personal note, I feel any stereotype is
>
> > dangerous and destructive to our society. Labeling
>
> > all men as either actively or passively sexist is
>
> > not fair or accurate. I wish everyone could get
>
> > passed their stereotypes and prejudices about
>
> > race, social status or gender. Let's try to
>
> > overcome the existing problems without creating
>
> > new ones.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
>
> > [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On
>
> > Behalf Of povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov
>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:00 AM
>
> > To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
>
> > Subject: PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 11, Issue 45
>
> >
>
> > Send PovertyRaceWomen mailing list submissions to
>
> > povertyracewomen at nifl.gov
>
> >
>
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide
>
> > Web, visit
>
> >
>
> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewo
>
> > men
>
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
>
> > 'help' to
>
> > povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov
>
> >
>
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>
> > povertyracewomen-owner at nifl.gov
>
> >
>
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
>
> > is more specific
>
> > than "Re: Contents of PovertyRaceWomen digest..."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Today's Topics:
>
> >
>
> > 1. [PovertyRaceWomen 1237] Re: Women (Muro,
>
> > Andres)
>
> > 2. [PovertyRaceWomen 1238] Re: Women (Muro,
>
> > Andres)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --------------------------------------------------
>
> > --------------------
>
> >
>
> > Message: 1
>
> > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:16:18 -0600
>
> > From: "Muro, Andres" <amuro5 at epcc.edu>
>
> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1237] Re: Women
>
> > To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy
>
> > Discussion List"
>
> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>, "The
>
> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy
>
> > Discussion List"
>
> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
>
> > Message-ID:
>
> > <CA29C5E82B801844A7A967D109F117CF278C96 at svrascmail
>
> > 01>
>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> >
>
> > I like the term women being in there.
>
> >
>
> > Andres
>
> >
>
> > ________________________________
>
> >
>
> > From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf
>
> > of Andrea Wilder
>
> > Sent: Sat 9/29/2007 8:08 PM
>
> > To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy
>
> > Discussion List
>
> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1233] Re: Women
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Thank you Katherine and Dahlia--Gender would be OK
>
> > with me, too. I
>
> > don't often hear life from the men's side,
>
> > specified as from the men's
>
> > side, not just a neutral English construction.
>
> > That of course would
>
> > mean that men spoke up as men on men's issues.
>
> > That would be
>
> > interesting and educational. Also women would
>
> > need to acknowledge
>
> > men's speech as from men--definitely a novelty and
>
> > potentially a very
>
> > interesting idea.
>
> >
>
> > Andrea
>
> >
>
> > On Sep 29, 2007, at 9:04 PM, Katherine G wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> > > Thank you, Andrea and all for your thoughts.
>
> > It's interesting the way
>
> > > we
>
> > > interpret gender and its manifestations through
>
> > words. Historically,
>
> > > I have
>
> > > preferred gender neutral labels as they aspire
>
> > to be all inclusive, so
>
> > > that's where my thought process comes from.
>
> > >
>
> > > Many, many great ideas on titles, so we shall
>
> > see what is decided!
>
> > >
>
> > > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
>
> > > From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
>
> > > [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov]On
>
> >
>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______________
>
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
>
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
>
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 4
>
> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:21:51 -0400
>
> From: Gail Spangenberg <gspangenberg at caalusa.org>
>
> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1241] (no subject)
>
> To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
>
> <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>, library-lit at ala.org,
>
> assessment at nifl.gov, The Adult English Language Learners
> Discussion
>
> List <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>, familylliteracy at nifl.gov,
>
> focusonbasics at nifl.gov, healthlitgeracy at nifl.gov,
>
> learningdisabilitgies at nifl.gov,
> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov,
>
> povertyracewomen at nifl.gov, specialtopics at nifl.gov,
>
> technology at nifl.gov, workplace at nifl.gov
>
> Message-ID: <29665244-BB3C-424E-9C9B-09C238726837 at caalusa.org>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> New York, NY 10-1-07 -- The Council for Advancement of Adult Literacy
>
> (CAAL) has released a new Policy Brief by senior analyst Julie Strawn
>
> of the Center for Law and Social Policy. This publication, POLICIES
>
> TO PROMOTE ADULT EDUCATION AND POSTSECONDARY ALIGNMENT, was prepared
>
> for the 3rd meeting of the National Commission on Adult Literacy on
>
> August 20, 2007. As introduced by its author, the publication focuses
>
> on "helping adults with lower skills and/or limited English
>
> proficiency earn postsecondary credentials that open doors to family-
>
> supporting jobs." It examines obstacles to moving toward this goal --
>
> with major attention to lack of alignment between federal and state
>
> adult education efforts, job training services, and postsecondary
>
> education policies. It also draws attention to the financial,
>
> personal, and family challenges that prevent adults from seeking and
>
> completing programs. Numerous policy and action recommendations are
>
> given for Commission consideration. The publication is available for
>
> download from the website of the National Commission, at
>
> www.nationalcommissiononadultliteracy.org/pandp.html It is also
>
> available in bound version from CAAL (for pricing and ordering
>
> instructions, bheitner at caalusa.org).
>
>
>
> Other materials developed for various meetings of the National
>
> Commission are also available at the Commission's website. The
>
> website, and publications and the activities of the National
>
> Commission, are supported by grants and in-kind support from the
>
> Dollar General Corporation, The McGraw-Hill Companies, the Ford
>
> Foundation, and several individual donors including Harold W. McGraw,
>
> Jr.
>
>
>
>
>
> Council for Advancement of Adult Literacy
>
> 1221 Avenue of the Americas - 46th Fl
>
> New York, NY 10020
>
> 212-512-2362, F: 212-512-2610
>
> www.caalusa.org
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> National Institute for Literacy
>
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen
>
>
>
> End of PovertyRaceWomen Digest, Vol 12, Issue 1
>
> ***********************************************
>
>
>
>
>
> Crystal Cuby Richardson
>
> Doctoral Student, MSIT
>
> Georgia State University
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> National Institute for Literacy
>
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> National Institute for Literacy
>
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
>
> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
>
> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> National Institute for Literacy
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------
> National Institute for Literacy
> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list
> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov
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David J. Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net
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