Hi David and everyone,

You're right!  This would be a great discussion for the Assessment List!

But I did want to chime in:  I have no doubt that the developers of the
NCLB framework think they did select and include necessary 'basic
skills', but this leaves open a set of fundamental questions that should
be considered.  

First, who determines what these basic skills ought to be?  How wide a
range of people were involved in determining this basis for the
framework to begin with?  Second, what exactly is meant by basic skills?
We know from research with the GED test, that studying for it and
earning one does not necessarily give rise to further study and/or
better employment.  That test supposedly teaches and tests 'basic
skills'.  We also know that basic skills today don't stop at good
reading and writing abilities, but today's basic skills include working
with groups as well as on your own, assessing situations critically, and
understanding and having a good handle on technology (should I say
"basic technology" - but then I ask:  what does that mean?) to name but
a few.  

Also, Kearney, I would definitely say there is presently a disconnect
between 'teaching basic skills' and preparing students to demonstrate
their knowledge - for all the reasons I just cited above.  Unless you
teach to the test - then it's no problem.  We don't have a good array of
tests that measure much more than if a person can regurgitate digested
info.  You would need to define what basic skills entails, and then the
person must necessarily demonstrate themselves in a pretty vast variety
of ways.  Otherwise, it is just an educational exercise that doesn't
contain the most important element:  transferability of knowledge and
skills.  

I personally assume that other similar tests, such as the MCAS in
Massachusetts, also must be questioned in the same ways.  And I do agree
with David that MCAS is a carefully constructed standardized test. It's
also crucial for states to be examining their curriculum frameworks, and
determine whether the high stakes tests they are administering align
with those curricula - this was definitely not the case in Mass, as
David points out (The TABE came in at about 40% correlation with the
state's frameworks).

Many colleges are starting to ignore SAT scores and so forth now -
because they are starting to understand that filling in bubbles on tough
questions for 4 hours can't possibly provide a portrait of that student,
that person.  They are also starting to ignore the essay portion - once
the cornerstone of the "performance" of the college application.  Well,
that piece can also be morphed into an ineffective gauge.  

All of this, for me, is a social justice issue.  Tests determine who
gets to go where, when, with whom, and for what reason.  Far too often,
only one type of measure is used for a whole range of reasons, some
being monumental.  I am an assessment person - I support large scale
tests and I support assessment in the classroom.  Without it, we are a
stagnant lot.  But what concerns me greatly are some of the things David
points out in his post:  using one measure to determine a person's worth
and ability only works in a few situations - very few.  A driving test
perhaps; then again, maybe not.  If you look at all the tests that
surround us all every day, then you also have to ask:  what is this test
supposed to measure?  Does it measure what it's supposed to?  Are we
even measuring the correct piece of the puzzle?  Why are we measuring
that exactly?

Sorry this is long.  For me, it was a really good thing that the grad
school I selected didn't care about my GREs, cuz if they did, I wouldn't
have my Master's degree.

Marie Cora
Assessment Discussion List Moderator
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/Assessment





-----Original Message-----
From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of David J. Rosen
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:57 AM
To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1309] Re: NCLB

Kearney,

That's a very good question, definitely one for the assessment  
list:   Do the NCLB-sactioned assessments assess basic skills and  
knowledge? Do they do this well? Are these assessments valid?  Is a  
single, standardized indirect measure in itself valid for assessing  
basic skills ,or is it sometimes misleading.  Would the validity be  
increased if there were other, direct measures used, too.

Some would argue that standardized tests are frequently misused. Fair  
Test, for example, the National Center for Fair & Open Testing --  
http://www.fairtest.org/  says it  "works to end the misuses and  
flaws of standardized testing and to ensure that evaluation of  
students, teachers and schools is fair, open, valid and educationally  
beneficial."  If high stakes standardized assessments such as the  
Massachusetts MCAS referred to here earlier -- I believe generally  
regarded as one of the better standardized basic skills tests -- are  
not giving a valid measure, then the 50% (disproportionately black,  
Latino and male) youth in the Boston Public Schools who fail them,  
are being unfairly discriminated against.  The assessment issue is  
then a social justice issue.

The Massachusetts Department of Education several years ago did a  
test of the validity of one of the most widely used standardized  
assessments in adult basic education, the TABE. The correlation  
between what it measured and what the Massachusetts adult education  
content standards ("Curriculum Frameworks") said should be measured  
was so low (I think it was 50%) that the state invested a huge amount  
of money in developing its own valid and reliable standardized adult  
basic skills assessment. None of the other states, as far as I know,  
have been able to do that.  I wonder how the TABE -- or other  
standardized tests -- correlate with their approved state content  
standards and curriculum frameworks.  If these are not aligned, what  
exactly is being measured, and is this what should be measured? Big  
questions, and maybe not for this discussion list, except that tests  
discriminate (in good and bad ways) and we need to know if they  
measure what we think they are measuring and what we want to be  
measured. Maybe they aren't.

David J. Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net




On Oct 4, 2007, at 11:35 AM, Kearney Lykins wrote:


> Katherine,

>

> You seem to be saying that there is a disconnect between "teaching  

> basic skills" and preparing students to demonstrate their knowledge  

> of the same. I don't get it.  Don't the NCLB-sanctioned assessments  

> assess basic skills and knowledge?

>

> / Kearney

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Katherine G <Kgotthardt at comcast.net>

> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"  

> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2007 11:16:39 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1302] Re: NCLB

>

> Kearney, I've been wading in NCLB for the past week because of a  

> paper I am

> writing, so I am going to jump into this conversation.

>

> First, impoverished schools that do not meet AYP have sanctions taken

> against them.  These include everything from changes in management to

> encouraging students to transfer to having the government take over  

> the

> school. Sanctions have negative ramifications:  talented teachers  

> leave.

> Remaining teachers face burnout.  Students are demoralized.  What  

> happens

> when a first grader attends a school with sanctions?

>

> Second, students transfer.  When students transfer, they bring with  

> them

> whatever they learned or didn't learn from their previous schools.   

> Teachers

> can't always catch up or catch on to this until the student is late  

> into

> high school, at which point, it's a little late to start addressing  

> problems

> that needed to be addressed in middle school. Additionally, when these

> students don't pass a test, they can jeopardize AYP which leads  

> back to

> sanctions.  It's a downward spiral.

>

> >From the research I've done and from having kids in elementary  

> school, I can

> say it's the foundations that count.  This is no news to most of  

> you who

> have worked in education, but in this day of testing, it has become  

> even

> more apparent.

>

> Obviously, students who have not passed the tests in the K-8 will  

> have a

> harder time passing them in 10-12.  But even worse, because NCLB is

> encouraging "teaching to the test" because of threatened sanctions,  

> you have

> students focusing on test taking and not learning basic skills in the

> elementary and secondary levels.  If you want to read teachers'  

> perspective

> on this, see

> http://eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2sql/ 

> content_storage_01/0000019b/80

> /29/dc/a0.pdf

>

> Just my two cents.

>

> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt, ESOL Online Instructor

> Prince William County Public Schools

> Adult Education

> P.O. Box 389

> Manassas, VA 20108

> work 703-791-8387

> fax 703-791-8889

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Kearney Lykins

> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:51 AM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1301] Re: NCLB

>

>

> Andrea,

>

> How does it "hit" poor kids and not rich kids? The test assesses  

> the basic

> skills of everyone. Isn't it critical to know who has them and who  

> doesn't?

> There is a very good reason basic skills are called basic skills:  

> we have

> decided they are necessary. Don't the MCAS results tell schools where

> remediation is called for, or where they should concentrate their  

> efforts?

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>

> To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race

> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 10:27:05 PM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1294] NCLB

>

>

> I said  to someone on the list that I would ask my cousin about her

> impressions of the MCAS--the standardized test for graduation in MA.

> Her opinion:  the MCAS is a series of basic skills tests that hits  

> poor

> kids in poor schools. Richer kids in richer schools already know this

> stuff and build on the basics year by year.  Teaching is  

> sequential, so

> "teaching to the test" will not work if kids are already behind on

> basic skills.  My niece does not study for the test, and no time is

> given over to test prep at her public school.  My cousin is

> multilingual and has many years of teaching ESOL.

>

> Andrea

>

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>

>

>

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David J. Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net



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