Andres--

I am talking, I think, about kids-in-school.

I am not talking about what you do for your adult students.  I have 
read what you have written, and you are the person who should know best 
what works, so I agree with you there.

Andrea

On Nov 26, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Muro, Andres wrote:


>

> It is not about what we would like you saying or not. It is about what 

> effective pedagogical practice. When you teach people in their native 

> language you don’t deny the other language. You can do both. Programs 

> that do native language literacy also do second language. Bilingual 

> programs are most effective. In fact, native English speakers would 

> benefit from learning a second language too.

>  

> Moreover, it is very difficult for people to learn a subject in a 

> language that they don’t know about. You cannot learn math or history 

> in Chinese if you don’t’ know how to speak Chinese. On the other hand, 

> if you learn math and history in English and then you learn Chinese, 

> you will also know math and history in Chinese.

>  

> Bilingual models simply teach students academic skills in their native 

> language. That does not mean that they don’t teach English.  By the 

> time children have some fluency in English; they also have academic 

> background on the subjects that they were covering in their native 

> language. So, when they transition into academic subjects in English, 

> they have not fallen behind.

>  

> The model that explains this, and I have posted this in the past is 

> called the BICS-CALPS model by Cummins. BICS= Basic interpersonal 

> communication skills. CALPS=Cognitive academic language proficiency 

> skills. In L1 you can go from BICS to CALPS. However, you cannot go 

> from BICS in L1 to CALPS in L2. However, you can go from CALPS in L1 

> to CALPS in L2.

>  

> This is the reason that students that come from other countries and 

> have academic skills in their native language easily learn academics 

> in English. Those that have not mastered academic proficiency in their 

> native language have a difficult time learning it in a second 

> language. If you don’t know in you native language that a verb is an 

> action word, an adjective is a descriptor, and a noun is a name, it is 

> going to be very difficult to get it in a different language. On the 

> other hand, if you know what these things are, it is going to be easy 

> to grasp them in another language.

>  

> We have a Spanish GED program. Once our students complete, we send 

> them to an academic ESL program. They tend to do very well. On the 

> other hand, those that don’t have academic skills in their native 

> language do very poorly in the ESL program.

>  

> Andres

>  

>  

>

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder

> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:19 AM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1442] Re: drop-outs

>  

> Hi Andre, Daphne,

>  

> When school kids are taught in their home language, not the school 

> language, then I would say that they are being denied knowledge of the 

> mainstream language. Some would not like me saying this, doubtless, 

> but it is the way I do see it, after having listened to and read many 

> opinions.

>  

> Suppose those pregnant teenagers came to school, were educated 

> together, and learned how to work with their children within a school 

> setting? Other places do this, why not every place?

>  

> I read in newspapers small vignettes of schools that work for poor 

> kids--they do the things for the children that parents who have more 

> money do for their own children, automatically. The corders of schools 

> have to be elastic, including in their working day these additional 

> tasks.

>  

> Small schools that have succeeded: 1) they are small and their classes 

> are small, 2) the teachers are knowledgeable in their subject areas. 

> 3) teachers check in with family members frequently, keeping strong 

> ties between students , parents, and school, 4 ) teachers assume that 

> children can learn, 5) there is discipline and rules and expectations 

> about behavior.

>  

> When you start with small children there is not a disposition that is 

> anti-school--you're starting with day care and what used to be called 

> "nursery school."

>  

> Are there people on this list serv who have managed, created, or 

> worked in schools with this model? And that enroll teenage mothers as 

> part of a normal high school experience?

>  

> Andrea

>  

> On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>>  

>> Hi Daphne:

>>  

>> Actually, this was one of the things that Allan Quigley focused on. 

>> He did studies and found that many k-12 students have a poor 

>> disposition towards traditional learning environments. He called them 

>> resistors. these are the students that end up dropping out. When they 

>> come to ABE contexts, they still have a poor disposition towards 

>> those environments that tend to repeat the same format as the k-12 

>> system.

>>  

>> Ogbu also studied resistance of "involuntary minorities" towards 

>> traditional learning environments. he argued that "Involuntary 

>> minorities", or those that have a lower social status in a 

>> society (in California Chicanos and blacks) are forced by schools 

>> to adopt that cultural patterns of the hegemonic group. If they do 

>> they will succeed in school but they will betray their own. So, 

>> minorities are caught between acting "whitie" and succeeding in 

>> school, but being rejected but their own peers, or continue to belong 

>> among their peers and failing in school.  

>>  

>> Jim Cummins suggested additive educational models, where students 

>> continued to learn cultural and linguistic practices of their peers 

>> as well as the hegemonic practices. In Oakland, it was proposed that 

>> kids learn the African American Language System along with standard 

>> English, but many were offended by that. In many kinders and 

>> elementary charter schools in California they are teaching Spanish, 

>> along with Mexican history, culture, etc. many of those school have 

>> received bomb threats, insults, etc. In fact, there is a radio show 

>> that has targeted those schools and spews all kinds of racist talk.

>>  

>> There is a charter school that I believe that is called "Semillas del 

>> Corazon". It is in a poor mostly Latin neighborhood. I think that you 

>> can find it on youtube. they have recordings of the threats that they 

>> get, and they've had to close. 

>>  

>> Andres 

>>  

>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

>> Sent: Sun 11/25/2007 6:52 PM

>> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1439] drop-outs

>>

>>  

>> Andrea raises an important point-" we should interview the drop-outs 

>> to see why they have dropped out." Does anyone know of studies which 

>> were conducted with high school drop outs, asking them why they 

>> dropped out of school? Perhaps some of you have asked your learners 

>> this question and want to contribute what you have learned. What I 

>> have heard are issues related to gangs, pregnancy, illness, moving 

>> around a lot. I have never heard anyone specifically state anything 

>> about the educational system, even though most of the learners that I 

>> have interacted with read below a fifth grade level, and therefore 

>> did not benefit from the school system way before they dropped out. 

>> It would be interesting if anyone knows of any studies that focus on 

>> this type of issue.

>> Daphne

>>  

>> >>> Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> 11/25/07 8:43 PM >>>

>> Hi Liz,

>>  

>> It is late (for me) Sunday, so I will just say that we should 

>> interview

>> the drop-outs to see why they have dropped out. Also--kids know school

>> is important,, it is a cultural norm;  often pleasing the parents is 

>> in

>> there too.  No one wants to fail.

>>  

>> Andrea

>>  

>> On Nov 25, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Liz Hawkins wrote:

>>  

>> > I think one of the problems with public education is that we often

>> > assume kids are fundamentally different from adults.  We assume that

>> > kids should and will go to school and try to succeed because they 

>> are

>> > required to do so and need to do so in order to get along in life;

>> > whereas adults presumably seek out education by choice.  However,

>> > making education compulsory for kids does not change the fact that

>> > students (of any age) will choose what they want to learn and how 

>> hard

>> > they will work to learn it based on a variety of factors. 

>> >

>> > Andre brought up the cultural/social issues that exist, and I

>> > certainly agree.  Students who see school as a place which offends 

>> and

>> > threatens their cultural ideals will struggle there.  When I taught 

>> in

>> > the public school system in S. Atlanta, I frequently had high school

>> > students (or even younger) who really needed to work (not in the

>> > future, but right then) in order to help support their families. 

>> > Although  I tried to be sensitive to these students' needs, I found

>> > myself insisting that education should be a priority, and in doing 

>> so

>> > without offering them any real solutions to their present dilemmas,

>> > alienating them.  At school, they are told they must succeed in 

>> school

>> > in order to have a hope for a better, more economically comfortable

>> > life, but that does not make sense to a child who knows she might 

>> not

>> > get to eat this weekend, that her little brother may not have shoes 

>> to

>> > wear this winter, or that her own baby will have no one to look 

>> after

>> > it if she goes to school every day and does all her homework instead

>> > of finding ways to make money.  Certainly these situations are not

>> > fair, but they are real, and if we want to improve education, we 

>> need

>> > to address these problems in the community as well.

>> >

>> > Dana mentioned the focus on testing as a fundamental problem in 

>> school

>> > systems, and this too is absolutely true, but the testing issue is

>> > representative of the same underlying issue--students fail to see a

>> > lack of relevance between what they are being told to learn and what

>> > they need to survive.  They do not understand (and neither do many

>> > teachers) why being able to pass a standardized test is important, 

>> and

>> > yet being able to pass the test is the primary incentive they are

>> > presented with as motivation to learn the material.  Having taught 

>> 9th

>> > and 10th graders, I know that there are many teachers who strive to

>> > make these connections and show their students how getting an

>> > education is truly, really, immediately and in the long-term,

>> > beneficial.  I was one of them, but honestly, more often than not I

>> > had a hard time seeing the relevance myself.

>> >

>> > So the issue remains that public school at present is not relevant 

>> to

>> > everyone.  I think that technical education programs, 

>> accelerated/dual

>> > enrollment programs, and magnet schools are all steps in the right

>> > direction toward making sure there are different types  of education

>> > available to meet different people's needs, but we need to do more. 

>> > If we can figure out what people really need and try to give it to

>> > them, perhaps parents and communities will again rally behind the

>> > educational system, providing local support and encouraging 

>> political

>> > changes at the state and national levels as well.  Rather than

>> > continuing to treat the symptoms of a poor educational system by

>> > prescribing medications (such as No Child Left Behind), many of 

>> which

>> > themselves have heinous side effects, we need to pull out the 

>> scalpel

>> > and operate on the core issues.

>> >

>> > -Liz

>> >

>> >

>> > Dana Donohue <dana.donohue at gmail.com> wrote:Hi Andre and Andrea.

>> >> Although I have never been a school teacher, I currently work on a

>> >> reading research project in several elementary schools in Atlanta. 

>> I

>> >> was curious about your statement, Andrea, that we still need to 

>> come

>> >> to an agreement about what the problems in the schools are. Excuse 

>> my

>> >> naivety, but is there still no consensus? Here are some of the 

>> major

>> >> problems that I have seen and have discussed with teachers. First

>> >> (and probably foremost), the focus on testing creates a lot of

>> >> apprehension and fear that if they (the classes and/or schools)

>> >> perform poorly, more of their funding will be taken away. Second,

>> >> there appears to be a lot of variability in the skills and 

>> expertise

>> >> between both schools and teachers. I'm guessing that this, too, may

>> >> stem from the funding issue. Lastly, I think that especially in the

>> >> poorer areas, there lacks that important bond between the schools 

>> and

>> >> the parents. These bonds may encourage children to stay engaged in

>> >> the learning process. I suppose that a good place to start to fix

>> >> these problems would be a push by educators to overhaul or do away

>> >> with No Child Left Behind. Of course, I'm not a teacher and so I am

>> >> curious about what teachers think about how to fix the myriad of

>> >> issues that hinder children's education.

>> >> 

>> >> Dana

>> >>

>> >> 

>> >> On 11/24/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote: 

>> Andre--

>> >>>

>> >>> I understand what you are saying.  I wrote what I did because I 

>> think

>> >>> there is enough experience and brain power on this list serv and

>> >>> others

>> >>> to light up a good-sized city.  Where I live, school boards get

>> >>> elected. They are supposed to be the link between the school and 

>> us,

>> >>> and they are answerable to us--us meaning the people who elected

>> >>> them.

>> >>> Here, the "us" are the extremely knowledgeable members of this 

>> list

>> >>> serv.  We know the consequences of school failure.  This is useful

>> >>> knowledge, not only for the dropouts, but what may be behind the 

>> drop

>> >>> outs.  I am convinced that groups of people with this knowledge, 

>> in

>> >>> our

>> >>>  communities, can make a difference.   I used to be a school 

>> teacher,

>> >>> too.  We first must come to some agreements as to what the 

>> problems

>> >>> are, then prioritize and find out where to start.

>> >>>

>> >>> Andrea

>> >>>

>> >>> On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Andre Whitmore wrote:

>> >>>

>> >>> > Andrea

>> >>> > I am a former school teacher and I believe that the school 

>> system

>> >>> > in and of itself is the reason why so many students fail. The

>> >>> > schooling process is designed to ensure that students are

>> >>> socialized

>> >>> > to acquire an American cultural identity, which for many of the

>> >>> > students is an unrealistic goal for them. It has become 

>> increasing

>> >>> > difficult for students to envisionhow they can actively 

>> participate

>> >>> > and succeed in this culture. Jobs, occupations, and success are 

>> no

>> >>> > longer consistent with education. The educational requirements 

>> have

>> >>> > become too demanding and do not offer any guarantee for a job. 

>> Many

>> >>> > minority students have observed how their family members and

>> >>> people in

>> >>> > the community have sought education that leads to poverty still.

>> >>> The

>> >>> > schooling process should offer students the opportunity ability 

>> to

>> >>> > become socialized in their culture so that they can associate 

>> real

>> >>> > significance to their education. furthermore, American culture

>> >>> > singifies free market and free enterprise opportunities, but the

>> >>>  > schooling process does not place emphasis on this aspect. Most

>> >>> public

>> >>> > schools teach students to become apoorly trained labor force 

>> that

>> >>> > remains dependent on the corporate structure. Simply put, 

>> students

>> >>> > will continue to resist public education until education in this

>> >>> > country receives a make-over.

>> >>> > Andre

>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----

>> >>> > From: Andrea Wilder < andreawilder at comcast.net>

>> >>> > To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race

>> >>> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>> >>> > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:29:06 PM

>> >>> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1429] Changing schools

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Hi everyone,

>> >>> >

>> >>> > I think it is really important to find out which types of 

>> students

>> >>> in

>> >>> > our local schools aren't doing well and to change local school

>> >>> behavior

>> >>> > so all students can succeed.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Andrea

>> >>> >

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