Just a quick comment after I read Margery's posting. 
People disagree about "whiteness" but I do agree that
the peculiarity of this society is that it does
emphasize ethnicity as a particular source of power,
more so than other societies.  In this sense the
experience of Jewish people is also unique because
they can have light skin and yet antisemitism is
alive.  

So, again those categories matter and the
intersections might make the term race diffuse but
they do not do away with the fact itself that color
matters.   

For some reason I think that it is easier to identify
white as a privilege precisely when you don't have the
features, the right accent, that might be helpful in
this society.  I have not encountered  more
significant spaces, at least for me, than academic
ones where not being white makes things a bit
complicated.  Granted that I have also found in those
spaces the opportunity to breathe, and the grace of
encountering the gift of intelligence and a strong
sense of ethics in some people

I am still reluctant to bring up the issue of race
without considering other categories.  However, I have
no doubt, none, that at times being Mexican and brown
can bring about unexpected and unwanted reactions.  At
times it brings up the painful feeling that you might
have earned an undeserved disadvantage.  

Nadia
--- Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote:


> Katherine.

> 

> You say you do not identify with white people.  Who

> are white people,  

> in your eyes?  What tells you they are white?

> 

> Thanks!

> 

> Andrea

> 

> On Feb 28, 2008, at 2:54 PM, Katherine wrote:

> 

> > "Our history shows how privileged white men

> deliberately enacted laws  

> > to separate poor people by race - giving

> legitimate status to white  

> > people just for being white"

> >  

> > So why should YOU have to buy into the guilt and

> inequity THEY have  

> > created?  Don't you see?  THEY (the law makers you

> are talking about)  

> > have ruined it for ALL of us!

> >  

> > Okay, so you identify with being white. I don't

> but I look white.   

> > Does that make me some kind of a bad person, an

> oppressor-in-denial?   

> > I think not!

> >  

> > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> > www.luxuriouschoices.net

> >> ----- Original Message -----

> >> From: margery freeman

> >> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

> Discussion List

> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:31 PM

> >> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1763] Re: Race, Power

> and Privilege

> >>

> >> Brett and Nadia have raised some great questions

> about the  

> >> intersections of race and class.  Certainly poor

> white people are  

> >> disadvantaged because of their class.  But as my

> colleague and mentor  

> >> Diana Dunn has pointed out, they are not poor

> because they are white.

> >>  

> >> What makes the U.S. social structures "peculiar"

> is that we've  

> >> wrapped them with racism.  Our history shows how

> privileged white men  

> >> deliberately enacted laws to separate poor people

> by race - giving  

> >> legitimate status to white people just for being

> white - so they  

> >> couldn't/wouldn't organize together with people

> of color for more  

> >> equitable conditions for all.  When we look at

> many social justice  

> >> movements (labor, agrarian, women, etc.) in this

> country, we realize  

> >> they all foundered on race. 

> >>  

> >> As a white woman, I have many identities.  I find

> that in  

> >> conversations about power, race and privilege, I

> can be effective  

> >> only when I name and claim my white identity.  As

> Deborah says, "I  

> >> know when others are real with me, say about

> sexism,  

> >> heterosexism,classism, etc. [it] helps me to

> trust them, work with  

> >> them, change things."  So it is with race.

> >>  

> >> Margery

> >>  

> >> Brett Griffiths <bgriff at umich.edu> wrote:

> >>> This thread has been fascinating to read. As a

> culture, we seem to  

> >>> hold a number of double standards when it comes

> to diversity and  

> >>> identity. For this reason, the term "race"

> remains problematic as  

> >>> many here described it when deciding on a new

> title for the  

> >>> discussion list. For those whites who are

> constructed as "others" by  

> >>> "others" we end up on the dialectic trick of two

> mirrors. How then  

> >>> do we carve out a place for dialogue?

> >>>

> >>>  If we do not allow for Katherine's identity and

> her identity as  

> >>> other than a one-dimensional social construction

> of "white", how do  

> >>> we really work towards understanding and

> dialogue? There is  

> >>> intra-racism and inter-racism. There are

> polemics that afford  

> >>> whoever is in power to construct the identity of

> the powerful, the  

> >>> powerless, and the middle opportunities for

> power between them. If  

> >>> we insist that all whites are "white" as they

> are constructed from  

> >>> the outside, do we not do the same disservice we

> have done to  

> >>> African Americans, Latinos, Irish, Italians,

> Arabs, Indians, etc.  

> >>> and all other minorities at each turn? 

> >>>

> >>> Second, it seems that whites who live in poverty

> often do not  

> >>> identify with the values of the culture that is

> socially-constructed  

> >>> as theirs. For this reason we have poor whites,

> who, like African  

> >>> Americans, end up buying OUT of education and

> the social  

> >>> constructions of identity and success that are

> shoved down their  

> >>> throats in the form of academic assumptions. Do

> we really want to  

> >>> say that there is no room for different-identity

> than the one  

> >>> constructed upon us from the outside? Isn't this

> defeating the very  

> >>> purpose of this listserv?

> >>>

> >>> Brett Griffiths

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> On Feb 26, 2008, at 1:09 PM, Katherine wrote:

> >>>

> >>>> "White is what your are designated by this

> race-constructed  

> >>>> society."

> >>>>  

> >>>> Well, PHOOEY on them!!!!  Who needs 'em

> anyway?  It's not what THEY  

> >>>> think.  It's what I think.

> >>>>  

> >>>> : )

> >>>>  

> >>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> >>>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----

> >>>>> From: margery freeman

> >>>>> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

> Discussion List

> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:04 AM

> >>>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1692] Re:  

> >>>>>

> DiscussingDiversityandPowerIssuesforProfessional

> Development in  

> >>>>> Adult Literacy

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Katherine:  White is what your are designated

> by this  

> >>>>> race-constructed society.  When you walk into

> a bank or a store,  

> >>>>> do the staff say, "Here comes a nice

> Lebanese/Sicilian woman?"   

> >>>>> No, they see you as white. 

> >>>>>  

> >>>>> Everyone wants to be acknowledged and

> recognized for all that we  

> >>>>> are - for our ethnicity, culture, sexuality,

> gender, age, class.   

> >>>>> And we should!  But we who are white also need

> to understand our  

> >>>>> historical and collective status  When we do

> that, then we can  

> >>>>> effectively join with others who have been

> collectivized (and made  

> >>>>> "less than") to transform these structures

> that dehumanize us all.

> >>>>> Margery

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Katherine <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

> >>>>>> Thank you everyone for your input!

> >>>>>>  

> >>>>>> Problem is, I don't identify with being

> white.  I just look  

> >>>>>> white. I'm about half Lebanese and half

> Sicilian.  And I've never  

> >>>>>> been part of any mainstream anything.  So

> saying, "As a white  

> >>>>>> woman..." feels unauthentic.

> >>>>>>  

> >>>>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> >>>>>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----

> >>>>>>> From: margery freeman

> >>>>>>> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

> Discussion List

> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:08 AM

> >>>>>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1688] Re:

> Discussing 

=== message truncated ===>
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