I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do think of English as an
amazingly beautiful language as well, with intracies and innuendo that are
unmatched throughout the world. I think the main reason for this is due to
the fact that English took cues from a myriad of languages, incorporating so
many things from so many different places.

I just want to make it understood that English is an oppressive language on
its own, but that it is the language of the dominant culture. That I see a
need to learn English in this country to accomplish social change is
speficially because, as Nadia said, in this clountry

"....without any hesitation that children can and

> have to learn English because this is also the

> language of action, advocacy and agency. "


"Adult educators may not need to know about "hidden

> rules", which I state, most sincerely, I don't know

> about. "


I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are just not in plain site.
Knowing that they are there is a big step towards understanding.




On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Katherine <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:


> Let's not forget that people who are multi-lingual are more globally

> knowledgeable--they can code-switch at the international level!  Language

> use helps us understand various perspectives because not all words

> "translate."  When we learn the idioms, metaphors, and philosophies behind

> various languages, we learn about culture and can communicate better. (Wish

> I had this ability to learn other languages because it is truly a gift.)

>

> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>  ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Nadia and Kevin Colby" <thecolbys at prodigy.net>

> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List"

> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:43 PM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2095] Re: Mastery

>

>

> > Daniel, I think that this is very true of children of

> > immigrants.  While I think that there are an awful lot

> > of books about language and immigration (and some

> > titles suggested by David Rosen regarding the "hidden

> > rules" of poverty)  I would like to add a couple of

> > thoughts about language.  Hopefully I am not off the

> > mark.

> >

> > It is true that children of immigrants have a more

> > acute pressure because they are trying to negotiate

> > two or three cultures at the same time.   They also

> > have a wonderful opportunity.   In many ways the

> > United  States has dealt much more with cultural

> > clashes than other countries.  English is the official

> > language, and a dominant language in the world.  It is

> > also the language  of great men and women, artists,

> > poets and public intellectuals.   It is actually a

> > beautiful language.  Thinking of different "codes" as

> > the word has been mentioned in this list, and keeping

> > in mind the post of Dr.Stitch  "A nation still at

> > Risk", (the government's failure to address the

> > literacy needs of the country, disregarding in

> > particular its inter generational effects)  I would

> > think without any hesitation that children can and

> > have to learn English because this is also the

> > language of action, advocacy and agency.  This does

> > not mean that other languages can not be spoken but I

> > don't know how many dual language programs are

> > successful in the country and what socioeconomic

> > segment of the population they target.  I know of a

> > dual language program in New York City

> > /French-English/ that targets a very affluent

> > population.  I worked in Bilingual Education in New

> > York City in a public elementary school that served

> > families who lived in public housing.   The problem

> > was not a dominant language vs the language of the

> > families (by all accounts under served and under

> > privileged) but the lack of the best resources

> > (manipulatives, books and teachers) for a population

> > that needed desperately the extra help.   To my

> > knowledge there were not ESL classes in the evening in

> > that particular school.  Though the kids and the

> > parents would have benefited tremendously from the joy

> > of learning along with their parents, of keeping an

> > oral tradition alive, and of taking pride in knowing

> > two languages, this never happened because the

> > resources were meager.

> >

> > The lack of linguistic resources to me is the main

> > issue.  Framing the problem from the point of view of

> > oppression (English as the language of racism, sexism,

> > xenophobia) does not allow us to move forward in Adult

> > Education.  Spanish, French and Portuguese, to mention

> > some languages I have been exposed to, are also

> > languages whose different codes and discourses allow

> > for marginalization.

> >

> > Adult educators may not need to know about "hidden

> > rules", which I state, most sincerely, I don't know

> > about.  Moving the debate among instructors and

> > students towards informative and critical thinking

> > with publications such as the "Change Agent" or

> > literature appropriate to the level of the students

> > seems to potentially have us all affirm with integrity

> > and honesty our commitment as educators and as

> > students to social justice and human rights.

> >

> > There is a wonderful book about agency and

> > illuminating moments of solidarity and lucidity of

> > workers and the under served in this country.  The

> > book analyzes different approaches to social movements

> > and then it provides the authors' own interpretation

> > of the FDR years.  "Regulating the Poor" by Francis

> > Fox Piven and Richard Cloward is a classic work now

> > regarding marginalized populations.   It looks at

> > poverty in the United States through the lens of the

> > punitive nature of the country's  social welfare

> > system.

> >

> > Then going back to language and its relationship to

> > oppression, I can' help thinking that Kafka and Walter

> > Benjamin wrote in German.   The devastating

> > experience of these writers is a prism through which

> > we can only celebrate that children learn the beauty

> > of English.  They can breathe through their linguistic

> > competence.  If we had the luxury that Continental

> > Europe seems to have, of educating children who will

> > speak more than one language, then maybe we would be

> > in a different country.

> >

> > As Glenn Young pointed out regarding learning

> > disabilities.  When we go from disable to enable, from

> > Negro to African-American, from "wet back" to Mexican,

> > and so on, when we share with our students that our

> > dignity is not negotiable, when we have informed

> > discussions with them maybe the hidden rules become an

> > open curriculum geared towards human rights.  My own

> > personal dream.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> > Nadia

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com> wrote:

> >

> >> and hopefully more of us will shuttle between the

> >> two!

> >>

> >> Maybe a next step for this discussion would be to

> >> let each other know the

> >> ways in which we incorporate certain rules from

> >> different aspects of our

> >> lives into who we are as human beings, what those

> >> rules may represrent, both

> >> negative and positive, in the culture from which we

> >> borrow, and how we have

> >> come to utilize them in ways that do not cause us to

> >> contradict the true

> >> essence of ourselves.

> >> I think this would help to furthur our understanding

> >> of the people we come

> >> into contact with, in the classroom or on the

> >> street, who feel they

> >> constantly have to compromise their integrity to

> >> achieve success in this

> >> country- the pressure to conform, the pressure to

> >> succeed, the feeling of

> >> not being completely a part of any one culture, and,

> >> especially those people

> >> that are born to first generation immigrants in this

> >> country, the constant

> >> switching back and forth between expectations from

> >> their family and

> >> expectations from society at large.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Karen Wyman

> >> <Karenw at nmcadv.org> wrote:

> >>

> >> >  Hi, all,

> >> >

> >> > In response to what Daniel wrote, I see your point

> >> about adding to the

> >> > tools we have able for use, and I do think that

> >> the use of some tools

> >> > requires us to go along with things we might have

> >> grave disagreements with.

> >> > To use the example of the English language, I must

> >> go along with its rules

> >> > in order to use, and some of those rules reflect

> >> aspects of our society and

> >> > culture that I abhor. Violence, sexism, racism,

> >> and classism are embedded in

> >> > the language we speak, and so we must use flawed

> >> tools to build our

> >> > understanding.

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > Of course, we all have to live in this flawed,

> >> imperfect world where we

> >> > must take part in systems and organizations which

> >> we don't wholeheartedly

> >> > support, and I understand that in order for change

> >> to occur, it takes all of

> >> > us. Some of us will do our work from within

> >> existing systems and structures,

> >> > and others of us will work from the outside.

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > Respectfully,

> >> >

> >> > Karen

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > Karen Wyman

> >> >

> >> > Community Outreach Trainer

> >> >

> >> > New Mexico Coalition Against Domestic Violence

> >> (NMCADV)

> >> >

> >> > 201 Coal Avenue SW

> >> >

> >> > Albuquerque, NM 87102

> >> >

> >> > phone 505.246.9240

> >> >

> >> > fax 505.246.9434

> >> >

> >> > www.nmcadv.org

> >> >

> >> > karenw at nmcadv.org

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> ----------------------------------------------------

> >> > National Institute for Literacy

> >> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> >> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

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> >> settings, please go to

> >> >

> >>

> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

> >> >

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> --

> >> Daniel Rizik-Baer

> >> Family Literacy Coordinator

> >> Children Youth and Family Collaborative

> >> (818) 442-4407 cell

> >> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> >> National Institute for Literacy

> >> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> >> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings,

> >> please go to

> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > National Institute for Literacy

> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

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> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

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> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

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-- 
Daniel Rizik-Baer
Family Literacy Coordinator
Children Youth and Family Collaborative
(818) 442-4407 cell
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