wow, what a horrible typo for me to make, completely turning my statement
180 degrees in a direction i did not want it to go!

I meant English is NOT an oppressive language on its own. Katherine, you are
so right and we agree 100%!

whew

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Katherine <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:


>  "English is an oppressive language on its own"  I don't think any

> language is oppressive on its own.  Words are words.  It's PEOPLE who make

> language oppressive by the way they use words.

>

> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>

>  ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com>

> *To:* The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>   *Sent:* Friday, April 25, 2008 1:00 PM

> *Subject:* [PovertyRaceWomen 2097] Re: Mastery

>

> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do think of English as an

> amazingly beautiful language as well, with intracies and innuendo that are

> unmatched throughout the world. I think the main reason for this is due to

> the fact that English took cues from a myriad of languages, incorporating so

> many things from so many different places.

>

> I just want to make it understood that English is an oppressive language on

> its own, but that it is the language of the dominant culture. That I see a

> need to learn English in this country to accomplish social change is

> speficially because, as Nadia said, in this clountry

>

> "....without any hesitation that children can and

> > have to learn English because this is also the

> > language of action, advocacy and agency. "

>

> "Adult educators may not need to know about "hidden

> > rules", which I state, most sincerely, I don't know

> > about. "

>

> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are just not in plain site.

> Knowing that they are there is a big step towards understanding.

>

>

>

>

> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Katherine <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

>

>> Let's not forget that people who are multi-lingual are more globally

>> knowledgeable--they can code-switch at the international level!  Language

>> use helps us understand various perspectives because not all words

>> "translate."  When we learn the idioms, metaphors, and philosophies behind

>> various languages, we learn about culture and can communicate better.

>> (Wish

>> I had this ability to learn other languages because it is truly a gift.)

>>

>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>>  ----- Original Message -----

>> From: "Nadia and Kevin Colby" <thecolbys at prodigy.net>

>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:43 PM

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2095] Re: Mastery

>>

>>

>> > Daniel, I think that this is very true of children of

>> > immigrants.  While I think that there are an awful lot

>> > of books about language and immigration (and some

>> > titles suggested by David Rosen regarding the "hidden

>> > rules" of poverty)  I would like to add a couple of

>> > thoughts about language.  Hopefully I am not off the

>> > mark.

>> >

>> > It is true that children of immigrants have a more

>> > acute pressure because they are trying to negotiate

>> > two or three cultures at the same time.   They also

>> > have a wonderful opportunity.   In many ways the

>> > United  States has dealt much more with cultural

>> > clashes than other countries.  English is the official

>> > language, and a dominant language in the world.  It is

>> > also the language  of great men and women, artists,

>> > poets and public intellectuals.   It is actually a

>> > beautiful language.  Thinking of different "codes" as

>> > the word has been mentioned in this list, and keeping

>> > in mind the post of Dr.Stitch  "A nation still at

>> > Risk", (the government's failure to address the

>> > literacy needs of the country, disregarding in

>> > particular its inter generational effects)  I would

>> > think without any hesitation that children can and

>> > have to learn English because this is also the

>> > language of action, advocacy and agency.  This does

>> > not mean that other languages can not be spoken but I

>> > don't know how many dual language programs are

>> > successful in the country and what socioeconomic

>> > segment of the population they target.  I know of a

>> > dual language program in New York City

>> > /French-English/ that targets a very affluent

>> > population.  I worked in Bilingual Education in New

>> > York City in a public elementary school that served

>> > families who lived in public housing.   The problem

>> > was not a dominant language vs the language of the

>> > families (by all accounts under served and under

>> > privileged) but the lack of the best resources

>> > (manipulatives, books and teachers) for a population

>> > that needed desperately the extra help.   To my

>> > knowledge there were not ESL classes in the evening in

>> > that particular school.  Though the kids and the

>> > parents would have benefited tremendously from the joy

>> > of learning along with their parents, of keeping an

>> > oral tradition alive, and of taking pride in knowing

>> > two languages, this never happened because the

>> > resources were meager.

>> >

>> > The lack of linguistic resources to me is the main

>> > issue.  Framing the problem from the point of view of

>> > oppression (English as the language of racism, sexism,

>> > xenophobia) does not allow us to move forward in Adult

>> > Education.  Spanish, French and Portuguese, to mention

>> > some languages I have been exposed to, are also

>> > languages whose different codes and discourses allow

>> > for marginalization.

>> >

>> > Adult educators may not need to know about "hidden

>> > rules", which I state, most sincerely, I don't know

>> > about.  Moving the debate among instructors and

>> > students towards informative and critical thinking

>> > with publications such as the "Change Agent" or

>> > literature appropriate to the level of the students

>> > seems to potentially have us all affirm with integrity

>> > and honesty our commitment as educators and as

>> > students to social justice and human rights.

>> >

>> > There is a wonderful book about agency and

>> > illuminating moments of solidarity and lucidity of

>> > workers and the under served in this country.  The

>> > book analyzes different approaches to social movements

>> > and then it provides the authors' own interpretation

>> > of the FDR years.  "Regulating the Poor" by Francis

>> > Fox Piven and Richard Cloward is a classic work now

>> > regarding marginalized populations.   It looks at

>> > poverty in the United States through the lens of the

>> > punitive nature of the country's  social welfare

>> > system.

>> >

>> > Then going back to language and its relationship to

>> > oppression, I can' help thinking that Kafka and Walter

>> > Benjamin wrote in German.   The devastating

>> > experience of these writers is a prism through which

>> > we can only celebrate that children learn the beauty

>> > of English.  They can breathe through their linguistic

>> > competence.  If we had the luxury that Continental

>> > Europe seems to have, of educating children who will

>> > speak more than one language, then maybe we would be

>> > in a different country.

>> >

>> > As Glenn Young pointed out regarding learning

>> > disabilities.  When we go from disable to enable, from

>> > Negro to African-American, from "wet back" to Mexican,

>> > and so on, when we share with our students that our

>> > dignity is not negotiable, when we have informed

>> > discussions with them maybe the hidden rules become an

>> > open curriculum geared towards human rights.  My own

>> > personal dream.

>> >

>> > Respectfully,

>> > Nadia

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com> wrote:

>> >

>> >> and hopefully more of us will shuttle between the

>> >> two!

>> >>

>> >> Maybe a next step for this discussion would be to

>> >> let each other know the

>> >> ways in which we incorporate certain rules from

>> >> different aspects of our

>> >> lives into who we are as human beings, what those

>> >> rules may represrent, both

>> >> negative and positive, in the culture from which we

>> >> borrow, and how we have

>> >> come to utilize them in ways that do not cause us to

>> >> contradict the true

>> >> essence of ourselves.

>> >> I think this would help to furthur our understanding

>> >> of the people we come

>> >> into contact with, in the classroom or on the

>> >> street, who feel they

>> >> constantly have to compromise their integrity to

>> >> achieve success in this

>> >> country- the pressure to conform, the pressure to

>> >> succeed, the feeling of

>> >> not being completely a part of any one culture, and,

>> >> especially those people

>> >> that are born to first generation immigrants in this

>> >> country, the constant

>> >> switching back and forth between expectations from

>> >> their family and

>> >> expectations from society at large.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Karen Wyman

>> >> <Karenw at nmcadv.org> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> >  Hi, all,

>> >> >

>> >> > In response to what Daniel wrote, I see your point

>> >> about adding to the

>> >> > tools we have able for use, and I do think that

>> >> the use of some tools

>> >> > requires us to go along with things we might have

>> >> grave disagreements with.

>> >> > To use the example of the English language, I must

>> >> go along with its rules

>> >> > in order to use, and some of those rules reflect

>> >> aspects of our society and

>> >> > culture that I abhor. Violence, sexism, racism,

>> >> and classism are embedded in

>> >> > the language we speak, and so we must use flawed

>> >> tools to build our

>> >> > understanding.

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > Of course, we all have to live in this flawed,

>> >> imperfect world where we

>> >> > must take part in systems and organizations which

>> >> we don't wholeheartedly

>> >> > support, and I understand that in order for change

>> >> to occur, it takes all of

>> >> > us. Some of us will do our work from within

>> >> existing systems and structures,

>> >> > and others of us will work from the outside.

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > Respectfully,

>> >> >

>> >> > Karen

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > Karen Wyman

>> >> >

>> >> > Community Outreach Trainer

>> >> >

>> >> > New Mexico Coalition Against Domestic Violence

>> >> (NMCADV)

>> >> >

>> >> > 201 Coal Avenue SW

>> >> >

>> >> > Albuquerque, NM 87102

>> >> >

>> >> > phone 505.246.9240

>> >> >

>> >> > fax 505.246.9434

>> >> >

>> >> > www.nmcadv.org

>> >> >

>> >> > karenw at nmcadv.org

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> ----------------------------------------------------

>> >> > National Institute for Literacy

>> >> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> >> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

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>> >> settings, please go to

>> >> >

>> >>

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> --

>> >> Daniel Rizik-Baer

>> >> Family Literacy Coordinator

>> >> Children Youth and Family Collaborative

>> >> (818) 442-4407 cell

>> >> >

>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>> >> National Institute for Literacy

>> >> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> >> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings,

>> >> please go to

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>> > National Institute for Literacy

>> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

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>

>

>

> --

> Daniel Rizik-Baer

> Family Literacy Coordinator

> Children Youth and Family Collaborative

> (818) 442-4407 cell

>

> ------------------------------

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

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>

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> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

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-- 
Daniel Rizik-Baer
Family Literacy Coordinator
Children Youth and Family Collaborative
(818) 442-4407 cell
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