Daniel, David--

OK, I think it is really necessary to lay out the rules that literacy 
students may be transitioning into.  i can already see that this is a 
big job, anyone interested in tackling it?

Andrea

On Apr 25, 2008, at 2:34 PM, David J. Rosen wrote:


> Daniel,

>

> You say that everyone knows the hidden rules. I may or I may not.

> It's hard to say because in this discussion I have seen so few

> examples of what have been referred to as the "hidden rules, "

> "unspoken rules," "prejudicial norms" or "pressures, constraints,

> barriers, biases, forces, power differentials, inequities in power or

> unfair conditions" .

>

> It might be helpful -- it certainly would to me -- if someone would

> post a list of  "the [hidden] rules of persons living with the

> effects of poverty, the intersection of these effects with gender and

> race and the misunderstandings these can cause in the teaching/

> learning process" in the U.S.

>

>  From this discussion so far, I have gleaned these as possible

> examples of those "hidden" or  "unspoken" rules:

>

> • If you are poor don't talk about finances in general social circles.

> • For low-income and poor people, and perhaps some working class

> people, reading is a luxury; there are more important things to do

> than reading, like working to keep the lights on and food on the

> table.  In other words, reading is a bourgeois activity.

> • When people become educated, they change, and will look down upon

> and eventually leave their families.

> • Working hard and studying hard may lead to success, but it depends

> greatly on one's economic, ethnic, and gender circumstances.

> • The hidden rules for any community or culture are culturally

> dependent; in order to function in another culture one needs to know

> what those rules are.... For example, when I visited a friend's

> family in a dangerous part of LA, she explained to me what the

> 'rules' were for a white girl at that time and in that place.

>

> What are some other unspoken rules for the poor? How do they

> intersect with gender and race? What misunderstandings do they cause

> in the teaching/learning process?

>

> Is all of this informed by Paulo Freire?  Or is it informed by Ruby

> Payne? Or someone else? It might make a difference in what the

> unspoken rules are. It certainly makes a difference in what you think

> we should do about the unspoken rules.

>

> David J. Rosen

> djrosen at comcast.net

>

>

> On Apr 25, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Daniel Rizik-Baer wrote:

>

>> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do think of English as

>> an amazingly beautiful language as well, with intracies and

>> innuendo that are unmatched throughout the world. I think the main

>> reason for this is due to the fact that English took cues from a

>> myriad of languages, incorporating so many things from so many

>> different places.

>>

>> I just want to make it understood that English is an oppressive

>> language on its own, but that it is the language of the dominant

>> culture. That I see a need to learn English in this country to

>> accomplish social change is speficially because, as Nadia said, in

>> this clountry

>>

>> "....without any hesitation that children can and

>>> have to learn English because this is also the

>>> language of action, advocacy and agency. "

>>

>> "Adult educators may not need to know about "hidden

>>> rules", which I state, most sincerely, I don't know

>>> about. "

>>

>> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are just not in plain

>> site. Knowing that they are there is a big step towards understanding.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Katherine <kgotthardt at comcast.net>

>> wrote:

>> Let's not forget that people who are multi-lingual are more globally

>> knowledgeable--they can code-switch at the international level!

>> Language

>> use helps us understand various perspectives because not all words

>> "translate."  When we learn the idioms, metaphors, and philosophies

>> behind

>> various languages, we learn about culture and can communicate

>> better. (Wish

>> I had this ability to learn other languages because it is truly a

>> gift.)

>>

>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: "Nadia and Kevin Colby" <thecolbys at prodigy.net>

>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:43 PM

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2095] Re: Mastery

>>

>>

>>> Daniel, I think that this is very true of children of

>>> immigrants.  While I think that there are an awful lot

>>> of books about language and immigration (and some

>>> titles suggested by David Rosen regarding the "hidden

>>> rules" of poverty)  I would like to add a couple of

>>> thoughts about language.  Hopefully I am not off the

>>> mark.

>>>

>>> It is true that children of immigrants have a more

>>> acute pressure because they are trying to negotiate

>>> two or three cultures at the same time.   They also

>>> have a wonderful opportunity.   In many ways the

>>> United  States has dealt much more with cultural

>>> clashes than other countries.  English is the official

>>> language, and a dominant language in the world.  It is

>>> also the language  of great men and women, artists,

>>> poets and public intellectuals.   It is actually a

>>> beautiful language.  Thinking of different "codes" as

>>> the word has been mentioned in this list, and keeping

>>> in mind the post of Dr.Stitch  "A nation still at

>>> Risk", (the government's failure to address the

>>> literacy needs of the country, disregarding in

>>> particular its inter generational effects)  I would

>>> think without any hesitation that children can and

>>> have to learn English because this is also the

>>> language of action, advocacy and agency.  This does

>>> not mean that other languages can not be spoken but I

>>> don't know how many dual language programs are

>>> successful in the country and what socioeconomic

>>> segment of the population they target.  I know of a

>>> dual language program in New York City

>>> /French-English/ that targets a very affluent

>>> population.  I worked in Bilingual Education in New

>>> York City in a public elementary school that served

>>> families who lived in public housing.   The problem

>>> was not a dominant language vs the language of the

>>> families (by all accounts under served and under

>>> privileged) but the lack of the best resources

>>> (manipulatives, books and teachers) for a population

>>> that needed desperately the extra help.   To my

>>> knowledge there were not ESL classes in the evening in

>>> that particular school.  Though the kids and the

>>> parents would have benefited tremendously from the joy

>>> of learning along with their parents, of keeping an

>>> oral tradition alive, and of taking pride in knowing

>>> two languages, this never happened because the

>>> resources were meager.

>>>

>>> The lack of linguistic resources to me is the main

>>> issue.  Framing the problem from the point of view of

>>> oppression (English as the language of racism, sexism,

>>> xenophobia) does not allow us to move forward in Adult

>>> Education.  Spanish, French and Portuguese, to mention

>>> some languages I have been exposed to, are also

>>> languages whose different codes and discourses allow

>>> for marginalization.

>>>

>>> Adult educators may not need to know about "hidden

>>> rules", which I state, most sincerely, I don't know

>>> about.  Moving the debate among instructors and

>>> students towards informative and critical thinking

>>> with publications such as the "Change Agent" or

>>> literature appropriate to the level of the students

>>> seems to potentially have us all affirm with integrity

>>> and honesty our commitment as educators and as

>>> students to social justice and human rights.

>>>

>>> There is a wonderful book about agency and

>>> illuminating moments of solidarity and lucidity of

>>> workers and the under served in this country.  The

>>> book analyzes different approaches to social movements

>>> and then it provides the authors' own interpretation

>>> of the FDR years.  "Regulating the Poor" by Francis

>>> Fox Piven and Richard Cloward is a classic work now

>>> regarding marginalized populations.   It looks at

>>> poverty in the United States through the lens of the

>>> punitive nature of the country's  social welfare

>>> system.

>>>

>>> Then going back to language and its relationship to

>>> oppression, I can' help thinking that Kafka and Walter

>>> Benjamin wrote in German.   The devastating

>>> experience of these writers is a prism through which

>>> we can only celebrate that children learn the beauty

>>> of English.  They can breathe through their linguistic

>>> competence.  If we had the luxury that Continental

>>> Europe seems to have, of educating children who will

>>> speak more than one language, then maybe we would be

>>> in a different country.

>>>

>>> As Glenn Young pointed out regarding learning

>>> disabilities.  When we go from disable to enable, from

>>> Negro to African-American, from "wet back" to Mexican,

>>> and so on, when we share with our students that our

>>> dignity is not negotiable, when we have informed

>>> discussions with them maybe the hidden rules become an

>>> open curriculum geared towards human rights.  My own

>>> personal dream.

>>>

>>> Respectfully,

>>> Nadia

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>> and hopefully more of us will shuttle between the

>>>> two!

>>>>

>>>> Maybe a next step for this discussion would be to

>>>> let each other know the

>>>> ways in which we incorporate certain rules from

>>>> different aspects of our

>>>> lives into who we are as human beings, what those

>>>> rules may represrent, both

>>>> negative and positive, in the culture from which we

>>>> borrow, and how we have

>>>> come to utilize them in ways that do not cause us to

>>>> contradict the true

>>>> essence of ourselves.

>>>> I think this would help to furthur our understanding

>>>> of the people we come

>>>> into contact with, in the classroom or on the

>>>> street, who feel they

>>>> constantly have to compromise their integrity to

>>>> achieve success in this

>>>> country- the pressure to conform, the pressure to

>>>> succeed, the feeling of

>>>> not being completely a part of any one culture, and,

>>>> especially those people

>>>> that are born to first generation immigrants in this

>>>> country, the constant

>>>> switching back and forth between expectations from

>>>> their family and

>>>> expectations from society at large.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Karen Wyman

>>>> <Karenw at nmcadv.org> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>>  Hi, all,

>>>>>

>>>>> In response to what Daniel wrote, I see your point

>>>> about adding to the

>>>>> tools we have able for use, and I do think that

>>>> the use of some tools

>>>>> requires us to go along with things we might have

>>>> grave disagreements with.

>>>>> To use the example of the English language, I must

>>>> go along with its rules

>>>>> in order to use, and some of those rules reflect

>>>> aspects of our society and

>>>>> culture that I abhor. Violence, sexism, racism,

>>>> and classism are embedded in

>>>>> the language we speak, and so we must use flawed

>>>> tools to build our

>>>>> understanding.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Of course, we all have to live in this flawed,

>>>> imperfect world where we

>>>>> must take part in systems and organizations which

>>>> we don't wholeheartedly

>>>>> support, and I understand that in order for change

>>>> to occur, it takes all of

>>>>> us. Some of us will do our work from within

>>>> existing systems and structures,

>>>>> and others of us will work from the outside.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Respectfully,

>>>>>

>>>>> Karen

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Karen Wyman

>>>>>

>>>>> Community Outreach Trainer

>>>>>

>>>>> New Mexico Coalition Against Domestic Violence

>>>> (NMCADV)

>>>>>

>>>>> 201 Coal Avenue SW

>>>>>

>>>>> Albuquerque, NM 87102

>>>>>

>>>>> phone 505.246.9240

>>>>>

>>>>> fax 505.246.9434

>>>>>

>>>>> www.nmcadv.org

>>>>>

>>>>> karenw at nmcadv.org

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>>>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription

>>>> settings, please go to

>>>>>

>>>>

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> --

>>>> Daniel Rizik-Baer

>>>> Family Literacy Coordinator

>>>> Children Youth and Family Collaborative

>>>> (818) 442-4407 cell

>>>>>

>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings,

>>>> please go to

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

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>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

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>>

>>

>>

>> -- 

>> Daniel Rizik-Baer

>> Family Literacy Coordinator

>> Children Youth and Family Collaborative

>> (818) 442-4407 cell

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>

> David J. Rosen

> djrosen at comcast.net

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

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