Ujwala-

"> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are

> just not in plain site.

> Knowing that they are there is a big step towards

> understanding.<<


I think there is a huge leap of faith in the first
statement. Rules are learned, through observation,
education and interaction. How many of our learners
have positive, direct, educational interaction upon
arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or income."
comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their first
name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an
invitation to discuss your state of mind or being. I
could go on..... I think there are things to be
learned through interaction, and some through
teaching."


What I meant is much closer to what you described.

What I mean is that people know the hidden rules, and yet do not know that
they know them, Things as simple as which hand to shake hands with, or many
other things that are cultural that may seem "natural," but in fact are
socially constructed.

So just as you said, rules are learned- but people learn them without really
realizing they are being socialized into a particular culture.

This is why I think it is so important for our youth to have the opportunity
for world travel- to see how other cultures express their humaness, to see
the simliarties and differences in how people live their lives may help our
youth to open their minds to see how their lives are socially constucted at
home.


Like Katherine said:

"We don't ask someone their age or income."
comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their first
name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an
invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

*I mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you hide how you are
feeling?
If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I don't, then I shouldn't bother
asking!*

Well yes, if we took the statement at face value. But imagine if for
everyone you said "how are you doing?" to, they actually told you about
their life, allo the trials and tribulations etc. We would never get through
our day!  It has become a greeting that means "hello" while appearing to
show caring, which I do not think is necessarily a bad thing. Certain people
really do want to know- close friends and family.

*True we don't call everyone by their first name, but some of that depends
on
how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger shakes my hand and says, "I'm
Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr. Smith"?  And if he calls ME
by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the same thing in return?
These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have (or don't have).*
**
I think this is a great example, especially because so many high schol
teachers and college professors from the 60's on up have attempted to break
down the academic/superiority "rules" created by calling them by their last
names by asking their students to call them by their first names. A perfect
exaqmple of people breaking social rules on purpose.

A cultural rule that has been legalized is how people attain their last
names. Did you know that for a woman to change her last name to her
husband's name, it costs under $100, but for a man to change his last name
to his wife's last name costs more than $300. These are rules left over from
before women had the right to vote!





On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Katherine <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:


> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their first

> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>

> But don't you think that's sad (except the income question in certain

> work-related contexts where you are usually told not to discuss income)?

>  I

> mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you hide how you are

> feeling?

> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I don't, then I shouldn't

> bother

> asking!  If someone asks me to buy something and I'm broke, what is wrong

> with saying, "Sorry, but I'm broke?"  We're so up tight and often

> dishonest

> in this culture.  (I'm back to the "hypocrite" thing, as you can tell.)

>

> True we don't call everyone by their first name, but some of that depends

> on

> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger shakes my hand and says,

> "I'm

> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr. Smith"?  And if he calls

> ME

> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the same thing in return?

> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have (or don't have).

>

> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> www.luxuriouschoices.net

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>

> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List"

> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>  Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:37 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2109] Re: Mastery

>

>

> >

> > --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com> wrote:

> >

> >> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do think

> >> of English as an

> >> amazingly beautiful language as well, with intracies

> >> and innuendo that are

> >> unmatched throughout the world. I think the main

> >> reason for this is due to

> >> the fact that English took cues from a myriad of

> >> languages, incorporating so

> >> many things from so many different places.<<

> >

> > As did Urdu, a language created from a blend of

> > Arabic, Persian, Hindi and every Indian language

> > spoken on the sub continent!

> >

> >

> >> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are

> >> just not in plain site.

> >> Knowing that they are there is a big step towards

> >> understanding.<<

> >

> > I think there is a huge leap of faith in the first

> > statement. Rules are learned, through observation,

> > education and interaction. How many of our learners

> > have positive, direct, educational interaction upon

> > arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or income."

> > comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their first

> > name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

> > invitation to discuss your state of mind or being. I

> > could go on..... I think there are things to be

> > learned through interaction, and some through

> > teaching.

> >

> > I agree with the second statement, that the rules of

> > communication and sociocultural norms, once learned

> > are very very handy markers and tools for cultural

> > negotiation.

> > Cheers

> > Ujwala

> >

> >

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Katherine

> >> <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

> >>

> >> > Let's not forget that people who are multi-lingual

> >> are more globally

> >> > knowledgeable--they can code-switch at the

> >> international level!  Language

> >> > use helps us understand various perspectives

> >> because not all words

> >> > "translate."  When we learn the idioms, metaphors,

> >> and philosophies behind

> >> > various languages, we learn about culture and can

> >> communicate better. (Wish

> >> > I had this ability to learn other languages

> >> because it is truly a gift.)

> >> >

> >> > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> >> > www.luxuriouschoices.net

> >> >  ----- Original Message -----

> >> > From: "Nadia and Kevin Colby"

> >> <thecolbys at prodigy.net>

> >> > To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

> >> Discussion List"

> >> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:43 PM

> >> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2095] Re: Mastery

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > > Daniel, I think that this is very true of

> >> children of

> >> > > immigrants.  While I think that there are an

> >> awful lot

> >> > > of books about language and immigration (and

> >> some

> >> > > titles suggested by David Rosen regarding the

> >> "hidden

> >> > > rules" of poverty)  I would like to add a couple

> >> of

> >> > > thoughts about language.  Hopefully I am not off

> >> the

> >> > > mark.

> >> > >

> >> > > It is true that children of immigrants have a

> >> more

> >> > > acute pressure because they are trying to

> >> negotiate

> >> > > two or three cultures at the same time.   They

> >> also

> >> > > have a wonderful opportunity.   In many ways the

> >> > > United  States has dealt much more with cultural

> >> > > clashes than other countries.  English is the

> >> official

> >> > > language, and a dominant language in the world.

> >> It is

> >> > > also the language  of great men and women,

> >> artists,

> >> > > poets and public intellectuals.   It is actually

> >> a

> >> > > beautiful language.  Thinking of different

> >> "codes" as

> >> > > the word has been mentioned in this list, and

> >> keeping

> >> > > in mind the post of Dr.Stitch  "A nation still

> >> at

> >> > > Risk", (the government's failure to address the

> >> > > literacy needs of the country, disregarding in

> >> > > particular its inter generational effects)  I

> >> would

> >> > > think without any hesitation that children can

> >> and

> >> > > have to learn English because this is also the

> >> > > language of action, advocacy and agency.  This

> >> does

> >> > > not mean that other languages can not be spoken

> >> but I

> >> > > don't know how many dual language programs are

> >> > > successful in the country and what socioeconomic

> >> > > segment of the population they target.  I know

> >> of a

> >> > > dual language program in New York City

> >> > > /French-English/ that targets a very affluent

> >> > > population.  I worked in Bilingual Education in

> >> New

> >> > > York City in a public elementary school that

> >> served

> >> > > families who lived in public housing.   The

> >> problem

> >> > > was not a dominant language vs the language of

> >> the

> >> > > families (by all accounts under served and under

> >> > > privileged) but the lack of the best resources

> >> > > (manipulatives, books and teachers) for a

> >> population

> >> > > that needed desperately the extra help.   To my

> >> > > knowledge there were not ESL classes in the

> >> evening in

> >> > > that particular school.  Though the kids and the

> >> > > parents would have benefited tremendously from

> >> the joy

> >> > > of learning along with their parents, of keeping

> >> an

> >> > > oral tradition alive, and of taking pride in

> >> knowing

> >> > > two languages, this never happened because the

> >> > > resources were meager.

> >> > >

> >> > > The lack of linguistic resources to me is the

> >> main

> >> > > issue.  Framing the problem from the point of

> >> view of

> >> > > oppression (English as the language of racism,

> >> sexism,

> >> > > xenophobia) does not allow us to move forward in

> >> Adult

> >> > > Education.  Spanish, French and Portuguese, to

> >> mention

> >> > > some languages I have been exposed to, are also

> >> > > languages whose different codes and discourses

> >> allow

> >> > > for marginalization.

> >> > >

> >> > > Adult educators may not need to know about

> >> "hidden

> >> > > rules", which I state, most sincerely, I don't

> >> know

> >> > > about.  Moving the debate among instructors and

> >> > > students towards informative and critical

> >> thinking

> >> > > with publications such as the "Change Agent" or

> >> > > literature appropriate to the level of the

> >> students

> >> > > seems to potentially have us all affirm with

> >> integrity

> >> > > and honesty our commitment as educators and as

> >> > > students to social justice and human rights.

> >> > >

> >> > > There is a wonderful book about agency and

> >> > > illuminating moments of solidarity and lucidity

> >> of

> >> > > workers and the under served in this country.

> >> The

> >> > > book analyzes different approaches to social

> >> movements

> >> > > and then it provides the authors' own

> >> interpretation

> >> > > of the FDR years.  "Regulating the Poor" by

> >> Francis

> >> > > Fox Piven and Richard Cloward is a classic work

> >> now

> >> > > regarding marginalized populations.   It looks

> >> at

> >> > > poverty in the United States through the lens of

> >> the

> >> > > punitive nature of the country's  social welfare

> >> > > system.

> >> > >

> >> > > Then going back to language and its relationship

> >> to

> >> > > oppression, I can' help thinking that Kafka and

> >> Walter

> >> > > Benjamin wrote in German.   The devastating

> >> > > experience of these writers is a prism through

> >> which

> >> > > we can only celebrate that children learn the

> >> beauty

> >> > > of English.  They can breathe through their

> >> linguistic

> >>

> > === message truncated ===>

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-- 
Daniel Rizik-Baer
Family Literacy Coordinator
Children Youth and Family Collaborative
(818) 442-4407 cell
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