--- Katherine <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:


> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

> first

> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

 

> But don't you think that's sad (except the income

> question in certain 

> work-related contexts where you are usually told not

> to discuss income)?  I 

> mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

> hide how you are feeling? 

> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I don't,

> then I shouldn't bother 

> asking!<<


"How're you doing?" and "Have a nice day" are things I
am sorry but when I am in the USA, I don't really pay
attention to. I just mechanically respond
automatically which seems to satisfy the social
niceties of that moment. This is a common discussion
between international students, especially when we
first come to America. And we learn the rules, slowly
but surely. 


>>If someone asks me to buy something and I'm

> broke, what is wrong 

> with saying, "Sorry, but I'm broke?"  We're so up

> tight and often dishonest 

> in this culture.  (I'm back to the "hypocrite"

> thing, as you can tell.)<<


I think that's a different situation, where one can
say , "Sorry chum, I'm broke," or, "I'm not
interested." 


> True we don't call everyone by their first name, but

> some of that depends on 

> how they introduce themselves. <<


In my case, it was everyone at uni, the profs all
introduced themselves by their first names. Then the
parents of my friends, my sister's in-laws, people
tend to introduce themselves by their first names.
Aside from my doctor and dentist, everyone else seems
to introduce themselves by their first names. Which
for Indians is a bit strange, because our
sociocultural norms are different, even today. 


>>If a stranger shakes

> my hand and says, "I'm 

> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

> Smith"?  And if he calls ME 

> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

> same thing in return? 

> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have (or

> don't have).<<


Oh yes, the assumption is to call them by their first
names. In India (and from my discussions with Africans
and Asians), generally we rarely refer to elders,
strangers, etc by their first names. I used to call my
professors Dr or Professor or would simply avoid
referring to them by their names when I first came to
America. I have become better at this now ;-) Still
can't call my in laws by their first names, so call
them Maman and Papa!
Oh well...
Cheers
Ujwala

PS as an international student and an observer of
American English, I have had some very interesting
discussions...


> 

> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> www.luxuriouschoices.net

> ----- Original Message ----- 

> From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>

> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion

> List" 

> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:37 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2109] Re: Mastery

> 

> 

> >

> > --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com>

> wrote:

> >

> >> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do

> think

> >> of English as an

> >> amazingly beautiful language as well, with

> intracies

> >> and innuendo that are

> >> unmatched throughout the world. I think the main

> >> reason for this is due to

> >> the fact that English took cues from a myriad of

> >> languages, incorporating so

> >> many things from so many different places.<<

> >

> > As did Urdu, a language created from a blend of

> > Arabic, Persian, Hindi and every Indian language

> > spoken on the sub continent!

> >

> >

> >> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are

> >> just not in plain site.

> >> Knowing that they are there is a big step towards

> >> understanding.<<

> >

> > I think there is a huge leap of faith in the first

> > statement. Rules are learned, through observation,

> > education and interaction. How many of our

> learners

> > have positive, direct, educational interaction

> upon

> > arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or

> income."

> > comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

> first

> > name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

> > invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

> I

> > could go on..... I think there are things to be

> > learned through interaction, and some through

> > teaching.

> >

> > I agree with the second statement, that the rules

> of

> > communication and sociocultural norms, once

> learned

> > are very very handy markers and tools for cultural

> > negotiation.

> > Cheers

> > Ujwala

> >

> >

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Katherine

> >> <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

> >>

> >> > Let's not forget that people who are

> multi-lingual

> >> are more globally

> >> > knowledgeable--they can code-switch at the

> >> international level!  Language

> >> > use helps us understand various perspectives

> >> because not all words

> >> > "translate."  When we learn the idioms,

> metaphors,

> >> and philosophies behind

> >> > various languages, we learn about culture and

> can

> >> communicate better. (Wish

> >> > I had this ability to learn other languages

> >> because it is truly a gift.)

> >> >

> >> > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> >> > www.luxuriouschoices.net

> >> >  ----- Original Message -----

> >> > From: "Nadia and Kevin Colby"

> >> <thecolbys at prodigy.net>

> >> > To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

> >> Discussion List"

> >> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:43 PM

> >> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2095] Re: Mastery

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > > Daniel, I think that this is very true of

> >> children of

> >> > > immigrants.  While I think that there are an

> >> awful lot

> >> > > of books about language and immigration (and

> >> some

> >> > > titles suggested by David Rosen regarding the

> >> "hidden

> >> > > rules" of poverty)  I would like to add a

> couple

> >> of

> >> > > thoughts about language.  Hopefully I am not

> off

> >> the

> >> > > mark.

> >> > >

> >> > > It is true that children of immigrants have a

> >> more

> >> > > acute pressure because they are trying to

> >> negotiate

> >> > > two or three cultures at the same time.  

> They

> >> also

> >> > > have a wonderful opportunity.   In many ways

> the

> >> > > United  States has dealt much more with

> cultural

> >> > > clashes than other countries.  English is the

> >> official

> >> > > language, and a dominant language in the

> world.

> >> It is

> >> > > also the language  of great men and women,

> >> artists,

> >> > > poets and public intellectuals.   It is

> actually

> >> a

> >> > > beautiful language.  Thinking of different

> >> "codes" as

> >> > > the word has been mentioned in this list, and

> >> keeping

> >> > > in mind the post of Dr.Stitch  "A nation

> still

> >> at

> >> > > Risk", (the government's failure to address

> the

> >> > > literacy needs of the country, disregarding

> in

> >> > > particular its inter generational effects)  I

> >> would

> >> > > think without any hesitation that children

> can

> >> and

> >> > > have to learn English because this is also

> the

> >> > > language of action, advocacy and agency. 

> This

> >> does

> >> > > not mean that other languages can not be

> spoken

> >> but I

> >> > > don't know how many dual language programs

> are

> >> > > successful in the country and what

> socioeconomic

> >> > > segment of the population they target.  I

> know

> >> of a

> >> > > dual language program in New York City

> >> > > /French-English/ that targets a very affluent

> 

=== message truncated ===



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