--- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com> wrote:

Daniel,

> 

> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the first

> statement. Rules are learned, through observation,

> education and interaction. How many of our learners

> have positive, direct, educational interaction upon

> arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or income."

> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

> first

> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being. I

> could go on..... I think there are things to be

> learned through interaction, and some through

> teaching."

 

> What I meant is much closer to what you described.

> 

> What I mean is that people know the hidden rules,

> and yet do not know that

> they know them, Things as simple as which hand to

> shake hands with, or many

> other things that are cultural that may seem

> "natural," but in fact are

> socially constructed. So just as you said, rules are

learned- but people

> learn them without really

> realizing they are being socialized into a

> particular culture.<<


Yes our behaviour is socially constructed, but it is
so well ingrained that it seems 'natural'. When we
stop thinking about our actions and they seem
'natural', and come across a culture where the norms
are different, in my experience, that is when one
feels lost and starts looking for the 'closest' thing
to what we know.

  

> This is why I think it is so important for our youth

> to have the opportunity

> for world travel- to see how other cultures express

> their humaness, to see

> the simliarties and differences in how people live

> their lives may help our

> youth to open their minds to see how their lives are

> socially constucted at

> home.<<


I couldn't agree more. Or even to dig a little deeper
into those from different cultures who live around us.
I remember an Afghani woman who said to me (in Urdu)
that she was surprised that everyone had such
negative, recent information about her country, nobody
had bothered to ask her what she missed/felt/knew
about her country. The assumption was that she came
from an 'oppressed' culture, an Islamic society and
everyone from Islamic societies were the same, from
oppressed cultures were the same. We have such rich
learning grounds around us, such a wealth of resources
in our students. A little digging...


> 

> 

> Like Katherine said:

> 

> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

> first

> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

> 

> *I mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

> hide how you are

> feeling?

> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I don't,

> then I shouldn't bother

> asking!*

> 

> Well yes, if we took the statement at face value.

> But imagine if for

> everyone you said "how are you doing?" to, they

> actually told you about

> their life, allo the trials and tribulations etc. We

> would never get through

> our day!  It has become a greeting that means

> "hello" while appearing to

> show caring, which I do not think is necessarily a

> bad thing. Certain people

> really do want to know- close friends and family.<<


For some of us, "how are you doing?" is really a
question reserved for when we mean to know how someone
is doing, not just 'hello'. As an
ex-counselor/therapist, I still find that greeting
superficial. 



> I think this is a great example, especially because

> so many high schol

> teachers and college professors from the 60's on up

> have attempted to break

> down the academic/superiority "rules" created by

> calling them by their last

> names by asking their students to call them by their

> first names. A perfect

> exaqmple of people breaking social rules on

purpose.<<

I understand that this is true for America and certain
Anglophone countries; given my experience in American
academia and other places since 1984. And I tend to
switch and call people by their first names. More than
superiority, for me it is a mark of respect that we
use in India, the suffix 'ji' or 'sahib' or sahiba'
when referring to older, wiser, more experienced
people. And I am quite happy offering that respect.

 

>> A cultural rule that has been legalized is how

> people attain their last

> names. Did you know that for a woman to change her

> last name to her

> husband's name, it costs under $100, but for a man

> to change his last name

> to his wife's last name costs more than $300. These

> are rules left over from

> before women had the right to vote!<<


Yes, I was aware of this because we had thought of
doing something along those lines. Similar rules exist
in France as well.
Cheers
Ujwala


> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Katherine

> <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

> 

> > "We don't ask someone their age or income."

> > comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

> first

> > name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

> > invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

> >

> > But don't you think that's sad (except the income

> question in certain

> > work-related contexts where you are usually told

> not to discuss income)?

> >  I

> > mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

> hide how you are

> > feeling?

> > If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I

> don't, then I shouldn't

> > bother

> > asking!  If someone asks me to buy something and

> I'm broke, what is wrong

> > with saying, "Sorry, but I'm broke?"  We're so up

> tight and often

> > dishonest

> > in this culture.  (I'm back to the "hypocrite"

> thing, as you can tell.)

> >

> > True we don't call everyone by their first name,

> but some of that depends

> > on

> > how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger

> shakes my hand and says,

> > "I'm

> > Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

> Smith"?  And if he calls

> > ME

> > by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

> same thing in return?

> > These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have

> (or don't have).

> >

> > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> > www.luxuriouschoices.net

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>

> > To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

> Discussion List"

> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> >  Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:37 AM

> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2109] Re: Mastery

> >

> >

> > >

> > > --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com>

> wrote:

> > >

> > >> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do

> think

> > >> of English as an

> > >> amazingly beautiful language as well, with

> intracies

> > >> and innuendo that are

> > >> unmatched throughout the world. I think the

> main

> > >> reason for this is due to

> > >> the fact that English took cues from a myriad

> of

> > >> languages, incorporating so

> > >> many things from so many different places.<<

> > >

> > > As did Urdu, a language created from a blend of

> > > Arabic, Persian, Hindi and every Indian language

> > > spoken on the sub continent!

> > >

> > >

> > >> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they

> are

> > >> just not in plain site.

> > >> Knowing that they are there is a big step

> towards

> > >> understanding.<<

> > >

> > > I think there is a huge leap of faith in the

> first

> > > statement. Rules are learned, through

> observation,

> > > education and interaction. How many of our

> learners

> > > have positive, direct, educational interaction

> upon

> 

=== message truncated ===>
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