Michael--

What you are describing--no surprise--is the difference that money  
makes in this country--money and a couple of generations with it.

Andrea

On Apr 28, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Michael Tate wrote:


> The hidden (middle class) rules are hidden, I think, mostly because of

> the impacts of poverty.  Some of the following are stereotypical in

> order to show the rules.  In any economic class there are many (maybe

> mostly) unique individuals who live outside the stereotypes.

>

> Maintenance is big for the middle class.  Cars are serviced regularly;

> the grass is cut; the house is painted; etc.  Low income folks don't

> have the income that would allow them to "keep" this rule generally.

> They drive their cars until they quit running and then look for another

> "junker".

>

> Gentility is another middle class rule. Middle class are able to avoid

> many of the travails of life.  They can buy houses in gated  

> communities.

> Their kids can go to private schools.  They avoid certain topics as not

> being appropriate during dinner, or to avoid putting a guest on the

> spot.  The "old" Navy had gentility rules for the officer's wardroom:

> "Never talk about women, politics or religion". They have refined

> palates, cultural sophistication, artistic sensitivities, etc. as a

> result of discretionary incomes, class expectations, etc.  The poor  

> live

> on "beer" budgets; they rarely have the price of admission to museums,

> art galleries, ballet, European holidays, etc.  Their conversations are

> often frank and unvarnished.  Sometimes, they reveal too much.  They

> feel like they don't have much to lose.

>

> Reputation is also key for the middle class.  They avoid getting

> involved with scandals, the sleazy and the sensational.  They join

> groups to be with the "right people" and to show their sense civic

> responsibility.  They make donations of time or money.  They try to

> "keep up with the Jones".  They only "let their hair down" in certain

> safe situations.  "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." They

> advertize their professional or family successes, and are silent about

> setbacks and failures, or they retell the problem in the best possible

> light.  The poor may work two jobs and not have time for civic

> activities. In frankly sharing their stories, they create the  

> curriculum

> of liberation.

>

> Career is essential for the middle class.  Over their lifetimes, they

> have ever greater responsibility and satisfaction.  They enjoy the

> esteem of their colleagues.  They are recognized by professional  

> groups.

> The poor have jobs (if they are lucky).  The get recognized for working

> hard, showing up on time and taking the job seriously.  They may have  

> or

> have had many unrelated jobs with fluctuating levels of responsibility.

> The job may not provide any sense of satisfaction or fulfillment.  The

> best job allows ample time for family and friends.  The best job skills

> are the barter-able ones:  construction, plumbing, electrical,

> beautician, home health care, catering.

>

> The middle class looks to the future (their legacy); the low income to

> the present (daily cycles of inertia and/or persistence); the rich to

> the past (their heritage).

>

> Michael Tate

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Ujwala Samant

> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 9:32 AM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2113] Re: Mastery

>

>

> --- Katherine <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

>

>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>> first

>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>

>> But don't you think that's sad (except the income

>> question in certain

>> work-related contexts where you are usually told not

>> to discuss income)?  I

>> mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

>> hide how you are feeling?

>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I don't,

>> then I shouldn't bother

>> asking!<<

>

> "How're you doing?" and "Have a nice day" are things I

> am sorry but when I am in the USA, I don't really pay

> attention to. I just mechanically respond

> automatically which seems to satisfy the social

> niceties of that moment. This is a common discussion

> between international students, especially when we

> first come to America. And we learn the rules, slowly

> but surely.

>

>>> If someone asks me to buy something and I'm

>> broke, what is wrong

>> with saying, "Sorry, but I'm broke?"  We're so up

>> tight and often dishonest

>> in this culture.  (I'm back to the "hypocrite"

>> thing, as you can tell.)<<

>

> I think that's a different situation, where one can

> say , "Sorry chum, I'm broke," or, "I'm not

> interested."

>

>> True we don't call everyone by their first name, but

>> some of that depends on

>> how they introduce themselves. <<

>

> In my case, it was everyone at uni, the profs all

> introduced themselves by their first names. Then the

> parents of my friends, my sister's in-laws, people

> tend to introduce themselves by their first names.

> Aside from my doctor and dentist, everyone else seems

> to introduce themselves by their first names. Which

> for Indians is a bit strange, because our

> sociocultural norms are different, even today.

>

>>> If a stranger shakes

>> my hand and says, "I'm

>> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

>> Smith"?  And if he calls ME

>> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

>> same thing in return?

>> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have (or

>> don't have).<<

>

> Oh yes, the assumption is to call them by their first

> names. In India (and from my discussions with Africans

> and Asians), generally we rarely refer to elders,

> strangers, etc by their first names. I used to call my

> professors Dr or Professor or would simply avoid

> referring to them by their names when I first came to

> America. I have become better at this now ;-) Still

> can't call my in laws by their first names, so call

> them Maman and Papa!

> Oh well...

> Cheers

> Ujwala

>

> PS as an international student and an observer of

> American English, I have had some very interesting

> discussions...

>

>>

>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>

>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion

>> List"

>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:37 AM

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2109] Re: Mastery

>>

>>

>>>

>>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com>

>> wrote:

>>>

>>>> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do

>> think

>>>> of English as an

>>>> amazingly beautiful language as well, with

>> intracies

>>>> and innuendo that are

>>>> unmatched throughout the world. I think the main

>>>> reason for this is due to

>>>> the fact that English took cues from a myriad of

>>>> languages, incorporating so

>>>> many things from so many different places.<<

>>>

>>> As did Urdu, a language created from a blend of

>>> Arabic, Persian, Hindi and every Indian language

>>> spoken on the sub continent!

>>>

>>>

>>>> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are

>>>> just not in plain site.

>>>> Knowing that they are there is a big step towards

>>>> understanding.<<

>>>

>>> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the first

>>> statement. Rules are learned, through observation,

>>> education and interaction. How many of our

>> learners

>>> have positive, direct, educational interaction

>> upon

>>> arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or

>> income."

>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>> first

>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>> I

>>> could go on..... I think there are things to be

>>> learned through interaction, and some through

>>> teaching.

>>>

>>> I agree with the second statement, that the rules

>> of

>>> communication and sociocultural norms, once

>> learned

>>> are very very handy markers and tools for cultural

>>> negotiation.

>>> Cheers

>>> Ujwala

>>>

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Katherine

>>>> <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Let's not forget that people who are

>> multi-lingual

>>>> are more globally

>>>>> knowledgeable--they can code-switch at the

>>>> international level!  Language

>>>>> use helps us understand various perspectives

>>>> because not all words

>>>>> "translate."  When we learn the idioms,

>> metaphors,

>>>> and philosophies behind

>>>>> various languages, we learn about culture and

>> can

>>>> communicate better. (Wish

>>>>> I had this ability to learn other languages

>>>> because it is truly a gift.)

>>>>>

>>>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>>>>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----

>>>>> From: "Nadia and Kevin Colby"

>>>> <thecolbys at prodigy.net>

>>>>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

>>>> Discussion List"

>>>>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:43 PM

>>>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2095] Re: Mastery

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> Daniel, I think that this is very true of

>>>> children of

>>>>>> immigrants.  While I think that there are an

>>>> awful lot

>>>>>> of books about language and immigration (and

>>>> some

>>>>>> titles suggested by David Rosen regarding the

>>>> "hidden

>>>>>> rules" of poverty)  I would like to add a

>> couple

>>>> of

>>>>>> thoughts about language.  Hopefully I am not

>> off

>>>> the

>>>>>> mark.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> It is true that children of immigrants have a

>>>> more

>>>>>> acute pressure because they are trying to

>>>> negotiate

>>>>>> two or three cultures at the same time.

>> They

>>>> also

>>>>>> have a wonderful opportunity.   In many ways

>> the

>>>>>> United  States has dealt much more with

>> cultural

>>>>>> clashes than other countries.  English is the

>>>> official

>>>>>> language, and a dominant language in the

>> world.

>>>> It is

>>>>>> also the language  of great men and women,

>>>> artists,

>>>>>> poets and public intellectuals.   It is

>> actually

>>>> a

>>>>>> beautiful language.  Thinking of different

>>>> "codes" as

>>>>>> the word has been mentioned in this list, and

>>>> keeping

>>>>>> in mind the post of Dr.Stitch  "A nation

>> still

>>>> at

>>>>>> Risk", (the government's failure to address

>> the

>>>>>> literacy needs of the country, disregarding

>> in

>>>>>> particular its inter generational effects)  I

>>>> would

>>>>>> think without any hesitation that children

>> can

>>>> and

>>>>>> have to learn English because this is also

>> the

>>>>>> language of action, advocacy and agency.

>> This

>>>> does

>>>>>> not mean that other languages can not be

>> spoken

>>>> but I

>>>>>> don't know how many dual language programs

>> are

>>>>>> successful in the country and what

>> socioeconomic

>>>>>> segment of the population they target.  I

>> know

>>>> of a

>>>>>> dual language program in New York City

>>>>>> /French-English/ that targets a very affluent

>>

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

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