Andrea, are you suggesting we can't do good in the world unless we follow 
the rules?

"Well behaved women rarely make history."

Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
www.luxuriouschoices.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrea Wilder" <andreawilder at comcast.net>
To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List" 
<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 8:47 PM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2119] Re: Mastery



> Ujwala--

>

> Greg Mortenson of "Three Cups of Tea" succeeded because he was able to

> learn the rules, I think his story is pretty dramatic;  shows what can

> be accomplished when some one has the diligence and desire to learn how

> to behave properly in order to get a job done.

>

> Andrea

>

>

> On Apr 28, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>

>> Just noted a typo my post. It should read, "We call

>> people by their first names." Or, "It's normal to call

>> people by their first names."

>> Ujwala

>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>>> Ujwala-

>>>

>>> "> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are

>>>> just not in plain site.

>>>> Knowing that they are there is a big step towards

>>>> understanding.<<

>>>

>>> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the first

>>> statement. Rules are learned, through observation,

>>> education and interaction. How many of our learners

>>> have positive, direct, educational interaction upon

>>> arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>> first

>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being. I

>>> could go on..... I think there are things to be

>>> learned through interaction, and some through

>>> teaching."

>>>

>>>

>>> What I meant is much closer to what you described.

>>>

>>> What I mean is that people know the hidden rules,

>>> and yet do not know that

>>> they know them, Things as simple as which hand to

>>> shake hands with, or many

>>> other things that are cultural that may seem

>>> "natural," but in fact are

>>> socially constructed.

>>>

>>> So just as you said, rules are learned- but people

>>> learn them without really

>>> realizing they are being socialized into a

>>> particular culture.

>>>

>>> This is why I think it is so important for our youth

>>> to have the opportunity

>>> for world travel- to see how other cultures express

>>> their humaness, to see

>>> the simliarties and differences in how people live

>>> their lives may help our

>>> youth to open their minds to see how their lives are

>>> socially constucted at

>>> home.

>>>

>>>

>>> Like Katherine said:

>>>

>>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>> first

>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>>>

>>> *I mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

>>> hide how you are

>>> feeling?

>>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I don't,

>>> then I shouldn't bother

>>> asking!*

>>>

>>> Well yes, if we took the statement at face value.

>>> But imagine if for

>>> everyone you said "how are you doing?" to, they

>>> actually told you about

>>> their life, allo the trials and tribulations etc. We

>>> would never get through

>>> our day!  It has become a greeting that means

>>> "hello" while appearing to

>>> show caring, which I do not think is necessarily a

>>> bad thing. Certain people

>>> really do want to know- close friends and family.

>>>

>>> *True we don't call everyone by their first name,

>>> but some of that depends

>>> on

>>> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger shakes

>>> my hand and says, "I'm

>>> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

>>> Smith"?  And if he calls ME

>>> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

>>> same thing in return?

>>> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have (or

>>> don't have).*

>>> **

>>> I think this is a great example, especially because

>>> so many high schol

>>> teachers and college professors from the 60's on up

>>> have attempted to break

>>> down the academic/superiority "rules" created by

>>> calling them by their last

>>> names by asking their students to call them by their

>>> first names. A perfect

>>> exaqmple of people breaking social rules on purpose.

>>>

>>> A cultural rule that has been legalized is how

>>> people attain their last

>>> names. Did you know that for a woman to change her

>>> last name to her

>>> husband's name, it costs under $100, but for a man

>>> to change his last name

>>> to his wife's last name costs more than $300. These

>>> are rules left over from

>>> before women had the right to vote!

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Katherine

>>> <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

>>>

>>>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>> first

>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>>>>

>>>> But don't you think that's sad (except the income

>>> question in certain

>>>> work-related contexts where you are usually told

>>> not to discuss income)?

>>>>  I

>>>> mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

>>> hide how you are

>>>> feeling?

>>>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I

>>> don't, then I shouldn't

>>>> bother

>>>> asking!  If someone asks me to buy something and

>>> I'm broke, what is wrong

>>>> with saying, "Sorry, but I'm broke?"  We're so up

>>> tight and often

>>>> dishonest

>>>> in this culture.  (I'm back to the "hypocrite"

>>> thing, as you can tell.)

>>>>

>>>> True we don't call everyone by their first name,

>>> but some of that depends

>>>> on

>>>> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger

>>> shakes my hand and says,

>>>> "I'm

>>>> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

>>> Smith"?  And if he calls

>>>> ME

>>>> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

>>> same thing in return?

>>>> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have

>>> (or don't have).

>>>>

>>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>>>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>>>> ----- Original Message -----

>>>> From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>

>>>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

>>> Discussion List"

>>>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>>>>  Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:37 AM

>>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2109] Re: Mastery

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com>

>>> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do

>>> think

>>>>>> of English as an

>>>>>> amazingly beautiful language as well, with

>>> intracies

>>>>>> and innuendo that are

>>>>>> unmatched throughout the world. I think the

>>> main

>>>>>> reason for this is due to

>>>>>> the fact that English took cues from a myriad

>>> of

>>>>>> languages, incorporating so

>>>>>> many things from so many different places.<<

>>>>>

>>>>> As did Urdu, a language created from a blend of

>>>>> Arabic, Persian, Hindi and every Indian language

>>>>> spoken on the sub continent!

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they

>>> are

>>>>>> just not in plain site.

>>>>>> Knowing that they are there is a big step

>>> towards

>>>>>> understanding.<<

>>>>>

>>>>> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the

>>> first

>>>>> statement. Rules are learned, through

>>> observation,

>>>>> education and interaction. How many of our

>>> learners

>>>>> have positive, direct, educational interaction

>>> upon

>>>

>> === message truncated ===>

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>>

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