So you ladies don't think there is ANYTHING revolutionary about going back 
and opening a school?  That's pretty radical in my mind.  It's out of the 
ordinary.  It's EXTRAORDINARY in fact.

Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
www.luxuriouschoices.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrea Wilder" <andreawilder at comcast.net>
To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List" 
<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:51 AM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2124] Re: Mastery



> Ujwala--

>

> Yes, he was extremely lucky.  As I recall, the porter who rescued him

> had knowledge of western ways, so Mortenson was somewhat understood, as

> a person and as an acceptable member of his western group--he was not

> an oddball.  There were  other factors specific to Mortenson that

> enabled him to do what he did--beyond luck, and having to do with his

> background.

>

>  He was also captured and (briefly) imprisoned when he did NOT follow

> the rules.  He got out of imprisonment when he DID follow the rules.

>

> Read the book.

>

> Andrea

>

> On Apr 29, 2008, at 2:29 AM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>

>> Andrea,

>>

>> That's the book I am struggling to read, to get into.

>> I give him full marks for adapting, that must have

>> been extremely hard; given the mountains, the culture

>> and the language. I also think he was extremely lucky

>> to have found the welcome he received, given those

>> areas.

>>

>> Cheers

>> Ujwala

>>

>>

>> --- Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote:

>>

>>> Ujwala--

>>>

>>> Greg Mortenson of "Three Cups of Tea" succeeded

>>> because he was able to

>>> learn the rules, I think his story is pretty

>>> dramatic;  shows what can

>>> be accomplished when some one has the diligence and

>>> desire to learn how

>>> to behave properly in order to get a job done.

>>>

>>> Andrea

>>>

>>>

>>> On Apr 28, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>>>

>>>> Just noted a typo my post. It should read, "We

>>> call

>>>> people by their first names." Or, "It's normal to

>>> call

>>>> people by their first names."

>>>> Ujwala

>>>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com>

>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Ujwala-

>>>>>

>>>>> "> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they

>>> are

>>>>>> just not in plain site.

>>>>>> Knowing that they are there is a big step

>>> towards

>>>>>> understanding.<<

>>>>>

>>>>> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the

>>> first

>>>>> statement. Rules are learned, through

>>> observation,

>>>>> education and interaction. How many of our

>>> learners

>>>>> have positive, direct, educational interaction

>>> upon

>>>>> arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or

>>> income."

>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>> first

>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not

>>> an

>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or

>>> being. I

>>>>> could go on..... I think there are things to be

>>>>> learned through interaction, and some through

>>>>> teaching."

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> What I meant is much closer to what you

>>> described.

>>>>>

>>>>> What I mean is that people know the hidden rules,

>>>>> and yet do not know that

>>>>> they know them, Things as simple as which hand to

>>>>> shake hands with, or many

>>>>> other things that are cultural that may seem

>>>>> "natural," but in fact are

>>>>> socially constructed.

>>>>>

>>>>> So just as you said, rules are learned- but

>>> people

>>>>> learn them without really

>>>>> realizing they are being socialized into a

>>>>> particular culture.

>>>>>

>>>>> This is why I think it is so important for our

>>> youth

>>>>> to have the opportunity

>>>>> for world travel- to see how other cultures

>>> express

>>>>> their humaness, to see

>>>>> the simliarties and differences in how people

>>> live

>>>>> their lives may help our

>>>>> youth to open their minds to see how their lives

>>> are

>>>>> socially constucted at

>>>>> home.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Like Katherine said:

>>>>>

>>>>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>> first

>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not

>>> an

>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or

>>> being.

>>>>>

>>>>> *I mean, if someone asks how you are, why should

>>> you

>>>>> hide how you are

>>>>> feeling?

>>>>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I

>>> don't,

>>>>> then I shouldn't bother

>>>>> asking!*

>>>>>

>>>>> Well yes, if we took the statement at face value.

>>>>> But imagine if for

>>>>> everyone you said "how are you doing?" to, they

>>>>> actually told you about

>>>>> their life, allo the trials and tribulations etc.

>>> We

>>>>> would never get through

>>>>> our day!  It has become a greeting that means

>>>>> "hello" while appearing to

>>>>> show caring, which I do not think is necessarily

>>> a

>>>>> bad thing. Certain people

>>>>> really do want to know- close friends and family.

>>>>>

>>>>> *True we don't call everyone by their first name,

>>>>> but some of that depends

>>>>> on

>>>>> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger

>>> shakes

>>>>> my hand and says, "I'm

>>>>> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

>>>>> Smith"?  And if he calls ME

>>>>> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

>>>>> same thing in return?

>>>>> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have

>>> (or

>>>>> don't have).*

>>>>> **

>>>>> I think this is a great example, especially

>>> because

>>>>> so many high schol

>>>>> teachers and college professors from the 60's on

>>> up

>>>>> have attempted to break

>>>>> down the academic/superiority "rules" created by

>>>>> calling them by their last

>>>>> names by asking their students to call them by

>>> their

>>>>> first names. A perfect

>>>>> exaqmple of people breaking social rules on

>>> purpose.

>>>>>

>>>>> A cultural rule that has been legalized is how

>>>>> people attain their last

>>>>> names. Did you know that for a woman to change

>>> her

>>>>> last name to her

>>>>> husband's name, it costs under $100, but for a

>>> man

>>>>> to change his last name

>>>>> to his wife's last name costs more than $300.

>>> These

>>>>> are rules left over from

>>>>> before women had the right to vote!

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Katherine

>>>>> <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>> first

>>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not

>>> an

>>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or

>>> being.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> But don't you think that's sad (except the

>>> income

>>>>> question in certain

>>>>>> work-related contexts where you are usually told

>>>>> not to discuss income)?

>>>>>>  I

>>>>>> mean, if someone asks how you are, why should

>>> you

>>>>> hide how you are

>>>>>> feeling?

>>>>>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I

>>>>> don't, then I shouldn't

>>>>>> bother

>>>>>> asking!  If someone asks me to buy something and

>>>>> I'm broke, what is wrong

>>>>>> with saying, "Sorry, but I'm broke?"  We're so

>>> up

>>>>> tight and often

>>>>>> dishonest

>>>>>> in this culture.  (I'm back to the "hypocrite"

>>>>> thing, as you can tell.)

>>>>>>

>>>>>> True we don't call everyone by their first name,

>>>>> but some of that depends

>>>>>> on

>>>>>> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger

>>>

>> === message truncated ===

>>

>>

>>

>>

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