"don't try to meddle with dearly held customs."  Come on Andrea.  Don't mess 
with customs?  It's a custom in some cultures to be racist, sexist, 
oppressive and hateful.  Should I leave that alone when it affects the 
community I live in?  (Note, I am talking about changing the culture in the 
United States from a destructive one to a productive one, not taking on 
international customs.)

It is considered RADICAL to do this even if you follow the proper channels. 
Consider the freedom of speech to which we are entitled.  Consider the ways 
oppressive powers here in this country try to stifle freedom of speech when 
it steps on political toes.  Is it not "radical" to fight this, especially 
in this apathetic day and age?

In this culture, choosing to defy the rest and wear "nappy hair" can be 
considered rebellious. Refusing to sit in the back of the bus was considered 
a radical statement at the time.  What I am saying is that there are rules 
and there are rules.  Sometimes, it takes very little rule and norm breaking 
to make a statement and change the culture for the better.

Don't misunderstand me here.  Violence used as a mechanism for change is 
never acceptable except as self defense against certain physical attack. 
But recall our most famous "radicals" were people who just decided, "enough 
is enough" and did something positive about it.

"At some point, silence is betrayal."  MLK broke the rules for the better. 
I suggest more of us do as well.

Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
www.luxuriouschoices.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrea Wilder" <andreawilder at comcast.net>
To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List" 
<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:56 AM
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2126] Re: Mastery



> Katherine,

>

> Well, yes, that is one possible interpretation of what I am saying. I

> am not   You must learn the native tongue.  I am not suggesting that

> you support female genital mutilation,  however, only show a deecnt

> respect for the local ways people follow to survive.

>

> An example:  richard CAsh, An American-trained public health doctor,

> was not able to make inroads in the use of ORT (Oral Rehydration

> Therapy) with communities in Bangladesh until ethnographers had studied

> the problem, and he himself had worked with local people, had lived

> with local people, eaten their food, essentially adapted to their ways.

>  He and his colleagues are now considered experts in this field.  ORT

> is a method of stopping life-threatening diarrhea through

> administration of a mixture of salt and sugars dissolved in water.

>

> In my work on leadership succession, which I am drawing on here, and

> which seems very applicable (the replacement of an authority figure)  I

> found that the most successful people (authority figures) had 1)  the

> skills the group needed, 2) had mastered the group's rules, and 3)  had

> then been able to educate / change the group.  The most interesting

> study I looked at was of kindergarten children, and  this study and all

> other successful group studies I looked at, followed this pattern.

>

> People who work outside the rules are often "invisible" to members of

> the group, as they don't old generally accepted positions in the group.

>  So I guess I am saying, "Listen,  and adapt!"   I do mean that

> literally--observe and learn, ask questions, show respect, don't try to

> meddle with dearly held customs.  Example:  check local customs before

> going into the bazaar in an American dress and uncovered arms and legs!

>

> However,  adaptation can be unhappy.  In the American situation, look

> at nappy hair, or rather its lack by African-American women and men who

> have their hair "pressed" to flatten it,, to look more acceptable and

> white.   This a sad adaptation, but seemingly necessary in an era when

> nappy hair was looked down on and is an example in my view of

> identification with the oppressor..

>

> Andrea

>

> .On Apr 28, 2008, at 9:30 PM, Katherine wrote:

>

>> Andrea, are you suggesting we can't do good in the world unless we

>> follow

>> the rules?

>>

>> "Well behaved women rarely make history."

>>

>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: "Andrea Wilder" <andreawilder at comcast.net>

>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 8:47 PM

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2119] Re: Mastery

>>

>>

>>> Ujwala--

>>>

>>> Greg Mortenson of "Three Cups of Tea" succeeded because he was able to

>>> learn the rules, I think his story is pretty dramatic;  shows what can

>>> be accomplished when some one has the diligence and desire to learn

>>> how

>>> to behave properly in order to get a job done.

>>>

>>> Andrea

>>>

>>>

>>> On Apr 28, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>>>

>>>> Just noted a typo my post. It should read, "We call

>>>> people by their first names." Or, "It's normal to call

>>>> people by their first names."

>>>> Ujwala

>>>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Ujwala-

>>>>>

>>>>> "> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are

>>>>>> just not in plain site.

>>>>>> Knowing that they are there is a big step towards

>>>>>> understanding.<<

>>>>>

>>>>> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the first

>>>>> statement. Rules are learned, through observation,

>>>>> education and interaction. How many of our learners

>>>>> have positive, direct, educational interaction upon

>>>>> arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>> first

>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being. I

>>>>> could go on..... I think there are things to be

>>>>> learned through interaction, and some through

>>>>> teaching."

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> What I meant is much closer to what you described.

>>>>>

>>>>> What I mean is that people know the hidden rules,

>>>>> and yet do not know that

>>>>> they know them, Things as simple as which hand to

>>>>> shake hands with, or many

>>>>> other things that are cultural that may seem

>>>>> "natural," but in fact are

>>>>> socially constructed.

>>>>>

>>>>> So just as you said, rules are learned- but people

>>>>> learn them without really

>>>>> realizing they are being socialized into a

>>>>> particular culture.

>>>>>

>>>>> This is why I think it is so important for our youth

>>>>> to have the opportunity

>>>>> for world travel- to see how other cultures express

>>>>> their humaness, to see

>>>>> the simliarties and differences in how people live

>>>>> their lives may help our

>>>>> youth to open their minds to see how their lives are

>>>>> socially constucted at

>>>>> home.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Like Katherine said:

>>>>>

>>>>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>> first

>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>>>>>

>>>>> *I mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

>>>>> hide how you are

>>>>> feeling?

>>>>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I don't,

>>>>> then I shouldn't bother

>>>>> asking!*

>>>>>

>>>>> Well yes, if we took the statement at face value.

>>>>> But imagine if for

>>>>> everyone you said "how are you doing?" to, they

>>>>> actually told you about

>>>>> their life, allo the trials and tribulations etc. We

>>>>> would never get through

>>>>> our day!  It has become a greeting that means

>>>>> "hello" while appearing to

>>>>> show caring, which I do not think is necessarily a

>>>>> bad thing. Certain people

>>>>> really do want to know- close friends and family.

>>>>>

>>>>> *True we don't call everyone by their first name,

>>>>> but some of that depends

>>>>> on

>>>>> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger shakes

>>>>> my hand and says, "I'm

>>>>> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

>>>>> Smith"?  And if he calls ME

>>>>> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

>>>>> same thing in return?

>>>>> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have (or

>>>>> don't have).*

>>>>> **

>>>>> I think this is a great example, especially because

>>>>> so many high schol

>>>>> teachers and college professors from the 60's on up

>>>>> have attempted to break

>>>>> down the academic/superiority "rules" created by

>>>>> calling them by their last

>>>>> names by asking their students to call them by their

>>>>> first names. A perfect

>>>>> exaqmple of people breaking social rules on purpose.

>>>>>

>>>>> A cultural rule that has been legalized is how

>>>>> people attain their last

>>>>> names. Did you know that for a woman to change her

>>>>> last name to her

>>>>> husband's name, it costs under $100, but for a man

>>>>> to change his last name

>>>>> to his wife's last name costs more than $300. These

>>>>> are rules left over from

>>>>> before women had the right to vote!

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Katherine

>>>>> <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>> first

>>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> But don't you think that's sad (except the income

>>>>> question in certain

>>>>>> work-related contexts where you are usually told

>>>>> not to discuss income)?

>>>>>>  I

>>>>>> mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

>>>>> hide how you are

>>>>>> feeling?

>>>>>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I

>>>>> don't, then I shouldn't

>>>>>> bother

>>>>>> asking!  If someone asks me to buy something and

>>>>> I'm broke, what is wrong

>>>>>> with saying, "Sorry, but I'm broke?"  We're so up

>>>>> tight and often

>>>>>> dishonest

>>>>>> in this culture.  (I'm back to the "hypocrite"

>>>>> thing, as you can tell.)

>>>>>>

>>>>>> True we don't call everyone by their first name,

>>>>> but some of that depends

>>>>>> on

>>>>>> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger

>>>>> shakes my hand and says,

>>>>>> "I'm

>>>>>> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

>>>>> Smith"?  And if he calls

>>>>>> ME

>>>>>> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

>>>>> same thing in return?

>>>>>> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have

>>>>> (or don't have).

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>>>>>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----

>>>>>> From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>

>>>>>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

>>>>> Discussion List"

>>>>>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>>>>>>  Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:37 AM

>>>>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2109] Re: Mastery

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com>

>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do

>>>>> think

>>>>>>>> of English as an

>>>>>>>> amazingly beautiful language as well, with

>>>>> intracies

>>>>>>>> and innuendo that are

>>>>>>>> unmatched throughout the world. I think the

>>>>> main

>>>>>>>> reason for this is due to

>>>>>>>> the fact that English took cues from a myriad

>>>>> of

>>>>>>>> languages, incorporating so

>>>>>>>> many things from so many different places.<<

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> As did Urdu, a language created from a blend of

>>>>>>> Arabic, Persian, Hindi and every Indian language

>>>>>>> spoken on the sub continent!

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they

>>>>> are

>>>>>>>> just not in plain site.

>>>>>>>> Knowing that they are there is a big step

>>>>> towards

>>>>>>>> understanding.<<

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the

>>>>> first

>>>>>>> statement. Rules are learned, through

>>>>> observation,

>>>>>>> education and interaction. How many of our

>>>>> learners

>>>>>>> have positive, direct, educational interaction

>>>>> upon

>>>>>

>>>> === message truncated ===>

>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

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>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

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>>>

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>

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