katherine--

My post was fairly nuanced;  it does not support your interpretation.

Andrea

On Apr 29, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Katherine wrote:


> "don't try to meddle with dearly held customs."  Come on Andrea.   

> Don't mess

> with customs?  It's a custom in some cultures to be racist, sexist,

> oppressive and hateful.  Should I leave that alone when it affects the

> community I live in?  (Note, I am talking about changing the culture  

> in the

> United States from a destructive one to a productive one, not taking on

> international customs.)

>

> It is considered RADICAL to do this even if you follow the proper  

> channels.

> Consider the freedom of speech to which we are entitled.  Consider the  

> ways

> oppressive powers here in this country try to stifle freedom of speech  

> when

> it steps on political toes.  Is it not "radical" to fight this,  

> especially

> in this apathetic day and age?

>

> In this culture, choosing to defy the rest and wear "nappy hair" can be

> considered rebellious. Refusing to sit in the back of the bus was  

> considered

> a radical statement at the time.  What I am saying is that there are  

> rules

> and there are rules.  Sometimes, it takes very little rule and norm  

> breaking

> to make a statement and change the culture for the better.

>

> Don't misunderstand me here.  Violence used as a mechanism for change  

> is

> never acceptable except as self defense against certain physical  

> attack.

> But recall our most famous "radicals" were people who just decided,  

> "enough

> is enough" and did something positive about it.

>

> "At some point, silence is betrayal."  MLK broke the rules for the  

> better.

> I suggest more of us do as well.

>

> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> www.luxuriouschoices.net

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Andrea Wilder" <andreawilder at comcast.net>

> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List"

> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:56 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2126] Re: Mastery

>

>

>> Katherine,

>>

>> Well, yes, that is one possible interpretation of what I am saying. I

>> am not   You must learn the native tongue.  I am not suggesting that

>> you support female genital mutilation,  however, only show a deecnt

>> respect for the local ways people follow to survive.

>>

>> An example:  richard CAsh, An American-trained public health doctor,

>> was not able to make inroads in the use of ORT (Oral Rehydration

>> Therapy) with communities in Bangladesh until ethnographers had  

>> studied

>> the problem, and he himself had worked with local people, had lived

>> with local people, eaten their food, essentially adapted to their  

>> ways.

>>  He and his colleagues are now considered experts in this field.  ORT

>> is a method of stopping life-threatening diarrhea through

>> administration of a mixture of salt and sugars dissolved in water.

>>

>> In my work on leadership succession, which I am drawing on here, and

>> which seems very applicable (the replacement of an authority figure)   

>> I

>> found that the most successful people (authority figures) had 1)  the

>> skills the group needed, 2) had mastered the group's rules, and 3)   

>> had

>> then been able to educate / change the group.  The most interesting

>> study I looked at was of kindergarten children, and  this study and  

>> all

>> other successful group studies I looked at, followed this pattern.

>>

>> People who work outside the rules are often "invisible" to members of

>> the group, as they don't old generally accepted positions in the  

>> group.

>>  So I guess I am saying, "Listen,  and adapt!"   I do mean that

>> literally--observe and learn, ask questions, show respect, don't try  

>> to

>> meddle with dearly held customs.  Example:  check local customs before

>> going into the bazaar in an American dress and uncovered arms and  

>> legs!

>>

>> However,  adaptation can be unhappy.  In the American situation, look

>> at nappy hair, or rather its lack by African-American women and men  

>> who

>> have their hair "pressed" to flatten it,, to look more acceptable and

>> white.   This a sad adaptation, but seemingly necessary in an era when

>> nappy hair was looked down on and is an example in my view of

>> identification with the oppressor..

>>

>> Andrea

>>

>> .On Apr 28, 2008, at 9:30 PM, Katherine wrote:

>>

>>> Andrea, are you suggesting we can't do good in the world unless we

>>> follow

>>> the rules?

>>>

>>> "Well behaved women rarely make history."

>>>

>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>>> ----- Original Message -----

>>> From: "Andrea Wilder" <andreawilder at comcast.net>

>>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>>> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 8:47 PM

>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2119] Re: Mastery

>>>

>>>

>>>> Ujwala--

>>>>

>>>> Greg Mortenson of "Three Cups of Tea" succeeded because he was able  

>>>> to

>>>> learn the rules, I think his story is pretty dramatic;  shows what  

>>>> can

>>>> be accomplished when some one has the diligence and desire to learn

>>>> how

>>>> to behave properly in order to get a job done.

>>>>

>>>> Andrea

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Apr 28, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Just noted a typo my post. It should read, "We call

>>>>> people by their first names." Or, "It's normal to call

>>>>> people by their first names."

>>>>> Ujwala

>>>>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> Ujwala-

>>>>>>

>>>>>> "> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they are

>>>>>>> just not in plain site.

>>>>>>> Knowing that they are there is a big step towards

>>>>>>> understanding.<<

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the first

>>>>>> statement. Rules are learned, through observation,

>>>>>> education and interaction. How many of our learners

>>>>>> have positive, direct, educational interaction upon

>>>>>> arrival? "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>>> first

>>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being. I

>>>>>> could go on..... I think there are things to be

>>>>>> learned through interaction, and some through

>>>>>> teaching."

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> What I meant is much closer to what you described.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> What I mean is that people know the hidden rules,

>>>>>> and yet do not know that

>>>>>> they know them, Things as simple as which hand to

>>>>>> shake hands with, or many

>>>>>> other things that are cultural that may seem

>>>>>> "natural," but in fact are

>>>>>> socially constructed.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> So just as you said, rules are learned- but people

>>>>>> learn them without really

>>>>>> realizing they are being socialized into a

>>>>>> particular culture.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> This is why I think it is so important for our youth

>>>>>> to have the opportunity

>>>>>> for world travel- to see how other cultures express

>>>>>> their humaness, to see

>>>>>> the simliarties and differences in how people live

>>>>>> their lives may help our

>>>>>> youth to open their minds to see how their lives are

>>>>>> socially constucted at

>>>>>> home.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Like Katherine said:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>>> first

>>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> *I mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

>>>>>> hide how you are

>>>>>> feeling?

>>>>>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I don't,

>>>>>> then I shouldn't bother

>>>>>> asking!*

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Well yes, if we took the statement at face value.

>>>>>> But imagine if for

>>>>>> everyone you said "how are you doing?" to, they

>>>>>> actually told you about

>>>>>> their life, allo the trials and tribulations etc. We

>>>>>> would never get through

>>>>>> our day!  It has become a greeting that means

>>>>>> "hello" while appearing to

>>>>>> show caring, which I do not think is necessarily a

>>>>>> bad thing. Certain people

>>>>>> really do want to know- close friends and family.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> *True we don't call everyone by their first name,

>>>>>> but some of that depends

>>>>>> on

>>>>>> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger shakes

>>>>>> my hand and says, "I'm

>>>>>> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

>>>>>> Smith"?  And if he calls ME

>>>>>> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

>>>>>> same thing in return?

>>>>>> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have (or

>>>>>> don't have).*

>>>>>> **

>>>>>> I think this is a great example, especially because

>>>>>> so many high schol

>>>>>> teachers and college professors from the 60's on up

>>>>>> have attempted to break

>>>>>> down the academic/superiority "rules" created by

>>>>>> calling them by their last

>>>>>> names by asking their students to call them by their

>>>>>> first names. A perfect

>>>>>> exaqmple of people breaking social rules on purpose.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> A cultural rule that has been legalized is how

>>>>>> people attain their last

>>>>>> names. Did you know that for a woman to change her

>>>>>> last name to her

>>>>>> husband's name, it costs under $100, but for a man

>>>>>> to change his last name

>>>>>> to his wife's last name costs more than $300. These

>>>>>> are rules left over from

>>>>>> before women had the right to vote!

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Katherine

>>>>>> <kgotthardt at comcast.net> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> "We don't ask someone their age or income."

>>>>>>> comes to mind. "We don't call everyone by their

>>>>>> first

>>>>>>> name." When asked "How're you doing?" it is not an

>>>>>>> invitation to discuss your state of mind or being.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> But don't you think that's sad (except the income

>>>>>> question in certain

>>>>>>> work-related contexts where you are usually told

>>>>>> not to discuss income)?

>>>>>>>  I

>>>>>>> mean, if someone asks how you are, why should you

>>>>>> hide how you are

>>>>>>> feeling?

>>>>>>> If I ask, don't I really want to know?  If I

>>>>>> don't, then I shouldn't

>>>>>>> bother

>>>>>>> asking!  If someone asks me to buy something and

>>>>>> I'm broke, what is wrong

>>>>>>> with saying, "Sorry, but I'm broke?"  We're so up

>>>>>> tight and often

>>>>>>> dishonest

>>>>>>> in this culture.  (I'm back to the "hypocrite"

>>>>>> thing, as you can tell.)

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> True we don't call everyone by their first name,

>>>>>> but some of that depends

>>>>>>> on

>>>>>>> how they introduce themselves.  If a stranger

>>>>>> shakes my hand and says,

>>>>>>> "I'm

>>>>>>> Jay Smith," then should I call him "Jay" or "Mr.

>>>>>> Smith"?  And if he calls

>>>>>>> ME

>>>>>>> by MY first name, shouldn't I assume I can do the

>>>>>> same thing in return?

>>>>>>> These are questions I'm sure ESOL students have

>>>>>> (or don't have).

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>>>>>>> www.luxuriouschoices.net

>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----

>>>>>>> From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>

>>>>>>> To: "The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy

>>>>>> Discussion List"

>>>>>>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>>>>>>>  Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:37 AM

>>>>>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 2109] Re: Mastery

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> --- Daniel Rizik-Baer <drizikbaer at gmail.com>

>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> I cannot agree with you more. I definitely do

>>>>>> think

>>>>>>>>> of English as an

>>>>>>>>> amazingly beautiful language as well, with

>>>>>> intracies

>>>>>>>>> and innuendo that are

>>>>>>>>> unmatched throughout the world. I think the

>>>>>> main

>>>>>>>>> reason for this is due to

>>>>>>>>> the fact that English took cues from a myriad

>>>>>> of

>>>>>>>>> languages, incorporating so

>>>>>>>>> many things from so many different places.<<

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> As did Urdu, a language created from a blend of

>>>>>>>> Arabic, Persian, Hindi and every Indian language

>>>>>>>> spoken on the sub continent!

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> I think everyone knows the hidden rules, they

>>>>>> are

>>>>>>>>> just not in plain site.

>>>>>>>>> Knowing that they are there is a big step

>>>>>> towards

>>>>>>>>> understanding.<<

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I think there is a huge leap of faith in the

>>>>>> first

>>>>>>>> statement. Rules are learned, through

>>>>>> observation,

>>>>>>>> education and interaction. How many of our

>>>>>> learners

>>>>>>>> have positive, direct, educational interaction

>>>>>> upon

>>>>>>

>>>>> === message truncated ===>

>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

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>>>>>> please go to

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>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

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>>>>

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>>

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