Andres,

Critical thinking, to me, is just humans' ability to reason, something we
all use , whether we are children or adult, literate or illiterate. But we
apply it selectively. Critical thinking is not as strong as our feelings and
prejudices, including ideological prejudices, which are the thought patterns
that accumulate in our brains through our experience of life.

Contrary to what you claim, I feel that how we apply logic or critical
thinking is very much bound to our ideological prejudices, otherwise we
would all arrive at the same conclusions when confronted with the same
information, and of course we do not. The suggestion that the teacher needs
to instruct the learner in how to think is also a form of ideology, one that
I do not share. The implication that the National Enquirer is not a good
source of content for a literacy learner, is another elitist ideological
position.

You say that everything is ideological, but you seem to exclude logic and
critical thinking which you call not bound to ideology. I do not share this
ideology. I do not think everything is ideological, and certainly not
literacy. Literacy, the ability to read, is, to me, no more ideological than
the ability to hear or listen. What we are listening to or reading may be
ideological in nature, but not the act of reading or listening, in my view.


Steve Kaufmann
604-922-8551
 <http://www.lingq.com/?referral=steve>
<http://www.lingq.com/?referral=steve>


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On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:52 AM, Muro, Andres <amuro5 at epcc.edu> wrote:


> I agree with Catherine:

>

> Critical thinking is not Critical Pedagogy, the second starting with

> Freire. Critical Pedagogy has an unquestionably ideologically Marxist

> position of "conscieticizing" the oppressed about the structural elements of

> oppression and to use literacy to struggle for liberation.

>

> OTOH, critical thinking is the idea that people must use knowledge and

> logic to critically read the world around them. Everyone starts from their

> own position and background and the educator does not impose ideology. The

> idea of critical thinking is that the educator questions the knowledge that

> the student uses as well as the logical conclusions drawn from the

> knowledge. In other words, the instructor may suggest that the student uses

> something other than the National Enquirer to inform themselves and to draw

> conclusions. At the same time logic is not ideologically bound but rule

> bound. In other words, to make logical conclusions the premises must add up.

>

> Ultimatelly everything is ideological since there is no neutrality in

> literacy, citizenship and society. But, critical thinking, unlike critical

> pedagogy does not attempt to impose an ideology unless one would consider

> rational, informed thinking ideological.

>

> Andres

> ________________________________________

> From: professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov [

> professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Catherine B. King [

> cb.king at verizon.net]

> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:14 AM

> To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List

> Subject: [PD 4091] Re: Politics and Teaching Ideologies--Swinging the Sword

> of Literacy in Iraq

>

> Steve says:

>

> "I believe that teaching 'critical thinking' is impossible, and that any

> attempt to do so is merely an effort to impose one's own values on others."

>  There is some truth to what Steve says--some, not all.

>

> First, what is not true about the above:  Colleges, universities, and many

> high schools have been teaching critical thinking for many years (centuries

> now?), and in many kinds of courses--some named as such, and some English

> and other courses with a critical thinking/logical component.   The field is

> based in logic (a branch of philosophy) and in developing one's thinking and

> rhetorical skills.  It's been around since Aristotle.

>

> As a teacher of it at times, I experienced it, and have seen it make a huge

> different in my students' abilities to think and express

> themselves--critically (See the standard text on this by Copi <--it didn't

> start with Paulo Freire).  In the short run, it helps a reader/student

> understand and sort out logical fallacies in speech and writing. Underneath

> the process, it basically helps towards a differentiation of mind.   In the

> long run, and in relation to political ideologies, it helps a reader/thinker

> recognize the political/social, etc., implications of what they are

> reading-hearing and, thus, to be able to avoid just accepting that level of

> writing **without question**, so that we/they need not accept the

> writers/speakers' assumptions in those arenas but, rather, can criticize

> **fully** what is being written or said to them/us.

>

> Second, with some modifications of language, what is right about what you

> say is that we certainly can view teaching as "an effort to impose one's own

> values on others."

>

> This is true--however,only insofar as any teaching, in some sense, is

> imposing.    But also it's true--however--only insofar as, in this case, my

> and others' here ideology is this:  I want to help my students understand

> for themselves--not to "impose," but to help unfold or draw-out what Freire

> knew is already there in the student's potential--a potential to understand

> better for themselves, including the political import of what comes to them

> in speech, writing, policy, etc., and what they choose freely to read, hear

> and be a part of--whatever that might be, and long after we have both left

> the class.

>

> Insofar as the above is an ideology of a teacher, what Steve says in this

> part of the above quote is true.   And learning/teachng to read is already a

> political act--insofar as it tends to open minds to all forms of new

> meaning, regardless of specifically what the teacher wants the reader to

> read.

>

> Regards,

>

> Catherine King

> Adjunct Instructor

> Department of Education

> National University

> San Diego, CA

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Janet Isserlis<mailto:Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu>

> To: professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov<mailto:

> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 6:45 AM

> Subject: [PD 4089] Re: Swinging the Sword of Literacy in Iraq

>

> Steve

>

> No.  Every poster is not promoting the position that teachers should teach

> learners to challenge society.

>

> really.

>

> that is not the case.

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com<mailto:steve at thelinguist.com>>

> Reply-To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List <

> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov<mailto:professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>>

> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:04:28 -0700

> To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List <

> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [PD 4087] Re: Swinging the Sword of Literacy in Iraq

>

> It appears that almost every poster here is in favour of the position that

> language and literacy teachers should teach their students to think

> critically, and to challenge society.

>

> I believe that teaching "critical thinking" is impossible, and that any

> attempt to do so is merely an effort to impose one's own values on others. I

> also think that it is arrogant to assume that one's own thinking process is

> more "critical" or objective than that of the learner, when in fact most of

> our positions are arrived at based on our own experience and feelings that

> accumulated over time. I believe that literacy teaching should focus on

> helping people read better so that they can form their own opinions by being

> able to read from many different sources. The way to get there is to allow

> learners to read what interests them and interpret it however they want.

>

> I accept that mine is a minority position here. However, every campaign for

> literacy that I have seen, especially fund raising activities focus on

> reading, not on critical thinking and social change. If the majority of

> literacy practitioners are into social change and teaching critical

> thinking, then I think it would only be honest to say so up front in the

> fund raising and advocacy campaigns. To not do so is dishonest in my

> opinion.

>

>

> Steve Kaufmann

> 604-922-8551

>  <http://www.lingq.com/?referral=steve><

> http://www.lingq.com/?referral=steve>  <

> http://www.lingq.com/?referral=steve><http://www.lingq.com/?referral=steve

> >

>

>

> --- @ WiseStamp Signature <http://www.wisestamp.com/email-install><

> http://www.wisestamp.com/email-install> . Get it now <

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>

>

> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Janet Isserlis <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu>

> wrote:

> Re: comments about Art's post, education in Iraq and the whole notion of

> political literacy.

>

> Just looked up the word politics, but the definition kept using the word

> "political"

> so then I looked that up:

>

> po·liti·cal (pə lit′i kəl)

>

> adjective

>

> of or concerned with government, the state, or politics

> having a definite governmental organization

> engaged in or taking sides in politics political parties

> of or characteristic of political parties or politicians political pressure

>

> http://www.yourdictionary.com/political

>

>

> so now, to reply, simply, to those who believe we shouldn't impose a

> particular set of political beliefs:

> NO ONE here has said we should.  Art has spoken eloquently to addressing

> the skills, knowledge and strategies needed to understand how government

> works and to enable adults to make choices  (and/or support them in making

> choices) that best suit their own interests and beliefs.  NO ONE is

> advocating for any one system, or set of beliefs.  No one is using the adult

> learning center as a soap box.  Good educators are listening to learners,

> living in shared communities, discussing what goes on and using language and

> learning skills, critical thinking, healthy debate, use of media and other

> resources, to enable everyone to get on as well as they can in the

> communities in which they live.

>

> Janet Isserlis

>

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>

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>

>

>

> --

> Steve Kaufmann

> www.lingq.com <http://www.lingq.com><http://www.lingq.com>

> 604-922-8514

>

> ________________________________

>

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>

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-- 
Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com
604-922-8514
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