This is a great discussion so far. I've enjoyed reading all the email 
today and thinking about all the ideas shared so far, as well as the
questions/concerns presented. I thought I'd jump into this conversation
by answering the question Maria posed below.

Question 1: (Goal Setting) - When I get new students in my class - one
of things we do together is go over the LEIS profile sheet A) because I
have to and B) it's a good way to begin to ask my students questions
about what brought them to the program and what they hope to get out of
it. I loved Lynn Howard's idea of the "Roles and Goals" sheet.  I don't
necessarily have a sheet, but I make lots of notes that I keep in each
students folder and/or in my own lesson planning notebook. 
Periodically, I come back to a student's goals and discuss with them
their progress towards their goals. It's a way to find out if they've
changed or added new ones. I can update their records that way and I can
also talk about realistic goal setting during the initial process and
the follow up. Usually, I have one or two students who place very low
and think getting their GED is going to be "easy".  When we get to the
follow up goal setting discussion, they've realized that they have
material to learn and opt to change their goals but stair stepping them
so that they can see their own POSITIVE gains in smaller chunks rather
than focusing on the big picture.

Like many of the others,  I share the concerns that there is a conflict
between accountability measures and the real reasons a student stops
coming. I do think teachers need to be accountable but I think there has
to be a better way than what is currently being done to programs. It
seems to me, that rather than helping to improve programs,
accountability measures that are directly tied to funding may ultimately
see some programs disappear. What happens to our students when they have
no place to go? In rural areas with high unemployment, high drop out
rates etc; it's often difficult to meet performance measures based on
the progress of standardized tests for the very reasons that students do
"stop out" for whatever reason - those reasons are never taken into
account, program funding gets cut and classes are closed because there
is no teacher to teach.

Barbara Wookey replied in an email: ". . . .there are ways to keep
students coming back by making them feel that they are an essential part
of the class, that they will be missed by the group when they are not
there. . . ."  I'm not sure it's that easy though. The one thing that my
students have repeatedly told me is the reason they keep coming back is
because they know I care...at the same time I still get the same number
of phone calls from students who tell me they don't have transportation,
no way to pay for daycare, no computer access to even consider working
online, having the baby at home would interfere with study time etc. No
matter how much I care for my students, no matter the level of
comraderie established in my class, some things are simply out of a
teachers control.   Additionally, I'd love to provide a course outline
but I have open enrollment. I can get students the week before a session
ends. A course outline, in that regard, would not be very useful. Not
only that, in a multilevel classroom, I may have multiple subjects going
at the same time and again it would limit the type of structure I can
provide. (I'm open to ideas if anyone has them.)  It's funny - you said
your program is becoming more "academic" while ours is becoming more
"vocational." We've learned that many of our students don't have desires
to pursue a 4 year degree or even a 2 year degree. Most are after skills
and certifications that are going to make them employable in a very
tight job market or give them skills if they move to a different market.
We're in the middle of trying to find that balance between academic and
vocational so we can meet both needs. I there are so many things that
can impact a student's persistence and I'm wondering if the needs
actually vary from region to region - rural to urban etc.  A lot of
research is done in the Northeast or other major metropolitan areas but
realistically, how applicable and how sound is it when it comes to a
program that serves in different regions that may have different factors
that influence persistence rates?

Regards
Katrina Hinson




>>> "Marie Cora" <marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com> 7/10/2006 10:02 am

>>>

Dear Colleagues,

Thanks so much to John Comings for being with us this week to discuss
Persistence.  I am very much looking forward to hearing what
strategies
folks use out there to try and tackle this issue with their students. 


I actually have two questions for you (and list subscribers):  I am
interested in hearing you elaborate a bit on the impact of having the
student set his or her own goals, and how best to help them to do
that.
It's quite easy to set a student's goal for her/him - but not so easy
to
get a student to determine a goal for her/himself.  What are some of
the
things that folks do around this issue?

Second, I heard you speak at a conference last fall in which you noted
that part of what could be helpful in persistence, is to acknowledge
that the student might not persist.  In other words, why not explore
with the student the reality that if they do "stop out", this doesn't
have to mean "quit".  I found this fascinating and at the same time,
completely logical.  This appears to be part of what you intend in
your
third area of research based on what I've read.  

Thank you again for your time this week and for the discussion.

Marie Cora
NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator
marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of David Rosen
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 7:37 AM
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov 
Subject: [SpecialTopics 89] Re: Persistence Discussion

Dear Colleagues,

Today we begin a discussion about the studies which Dr. John Comings  
and others at the National Center for the Study of Adult Learning and 

Literacy have done on persistence.  The discussion will continue  
through Tuesday next week, July 18th.

Please post your questions and comments to John beginning now.

In John's message below he describes two publications which may be of 

interest.  Each has a short executive summary.   There is also a 30- 
minute video panel discussion about the study, with John and two  
practitioners, streamed at:

http://www.nifl.gov/nifl/webcasts/persistence/persistence_cast.html 

You may need to cut and paste the whole web address in your browser,  
or you could try this shorter version:

http://tinyurl.com/s6tcu 

Macintosh users will need to select the Quicktime format for viewing  
the presentation, and there are still some bugs to be worked out of  
the Mac streamed version.

David J. Rosen
Special Topics Discussion List Moderator
djrosen at comcast.net 

On Jul 5, 2006, at 4:33 PM, David Rosen wrote:


> Special Topics List Discussion Colleagues,

>

> John Comings, Director of the National Center for the Study of Adult

> Learning and Literacy, will join us on July 10th to discuss the

> persistence study he has done. John has written an introduction,

> below, and included links to reports of the first two phases of the

> study. I hope you can read these before July 10th.  You are welcome

> to submit questions, ideas and comments for John beginning now, but

> these will not be posted until July 10th.

>

> i am looking forward to your joining in on this important

discussion.

>

> David J. Rosen

> Special Topics Discussion List Moderator

> djrosen at comcast.net 

> --------------

>

> When a group of us at World Education were preparing to write the

> proposal for the funds that have supported NCSALL, we surveyed

> practitioners and policy makers around the country to help us design

> our research agenda. Almost 500 people participated in the survey.

We

> asked the survey participants to send us the questions that they

> wanted answered to help them improve practice in ABE, ESOL, and GED

> programs. One question was at the top of the list for teachers and

> second on everyone else's list. One teacher phrased it this way,

> "Just when they begin to make progress, many students leave the

> program.   How can I keep those students long enough that they can

> meet their educational goals?"

>

> That question formed the basis of a three-phase study of

persistence.

> The first two phases are complete.  The first phase surveyed the

> literature, interviewed 150 students in the six New England states,

> and identified ways that programs were trying to support the

> persistence of their students. The report of that first phase can be

> found at:

>

> <http://www.ncsall.net/fileadmin/resources/research/report12.pdf>

>

> In the second phase, 9 library literacy programs were provided with

> funds to implement interventions that might help improve

persistence,

> and our study team observed the programs and interviewed their staff

> and students. We also followed a cohort of 180 students for 14

> months.  The report of that second phase can be found at:

>

> <http://www.mdrc.org/publications/401/overview.html>

>

> We are prepared to implement the third phase, but NCSALL no longer

> has funding to begin a new research project. This next phase would

> test three interventions. One would add persistence supports to

> existing classroom programs, one would use a wide range of modes of

> learning (in programs and through self study on-line and in other

> ways) that more closely match the way adults manage their learning,

> and the third would combine these two approaches. I believe the

third

> approach is a promising way to solve the persistence problem, as

well

> as it can be solved.

>

> I'm looking forward to your questions, but I would also be

interested

> in practical ideas of how to build support to persistence and how to

> expand opportunities for learning.

>

> John Comings, NCSALL Director

> National Center for the Study of Adult Learning and Literacy

> Harvard Graduate School of Education

> 7 Appian Way

> Cambridge MA 02138

> (617) 496-0516, voice

> (617) 495-4811, fax

> (617) 335-9839, mobile

> john_comings at harvard.edu 

> http://ncsall.gse.harvard.edu 

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Special Topics mailing list

> SpecialTopics at nifl.gov 

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopics 


David Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net 



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