Lynn-- I will jump in with my version of this-- I hope Heide has her 
version.  I get asked this question an awful lot.  I know from brain 
research that the brain creates neural pathways when anything is 
learned.   The longer the behavior is used, the bigger the neural 
pathway.   When we help learners produce a new sound or combination of 
sounds, we are asking them to create a new pathway --we want that one 
to replace the old one, but at first --and maybe always-- the old is 
like an interstate and the new one like a cow path-- the old one will 
be used in unconsciousl situations because it is so well established.

It is said about spelling that one must spell a word correctly one more 
time than one has spelled it incorrectly in life--which means the same 
thing-- the new pathway has to become dominant over the old one for the 
new behavior to be used more than the old one-- in adult language 
learners' brains, this means an awful lot of practice!!

As I have said before here, one practice I advocate heavily is use of 
minimal pair drills to help the learner's brain focus on the critical 
sounds it needs to build that new pathway.  I was challenged on this 
recently by people in ESOL who say that minimal pairs do not help adult 
learners at all and are a waste of time because their brains cannot 
learn to hear these differences any more .  However, I did a reality 
check on that with a colleague who is a speech pathologist.   She 
scoffed at this idea--in speech pathology, minimal pairs are used not 
only as a screening test, but are used vigorously by therapists to help 
patients of all ages who need clearer auditory input to be able to 
produce speech more clearly.   This is exactly why I have used them for 
years with ANY learner or group of learners I work with.  It helps so 
much with the problem  you identify.

I do a lot of training around minimal pairs and teachers always report 
that students are EAGER for the practice and often ask to have practice 
on sounds they KNOW they have difficulty hearing and producing.

Robin Lovrien Schwarz


-----Original Message-----
From: lynneweintraub at hotmail.com
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
Sent: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:14 AM
Subject: [SpecialTopics 306] Re: interlanguage, fossilization, and 
corrective feedback

Heide: What I often hear from tutors is that they can get the student 
to
produce a troublesome sound/sentence correctly (or identify errors) 
when the
focus of a lesson is on that one particular aspect of language, but 
that it
does not carry through in spontaneous production. Any thoughts?
Lynne Weintraub



>From: "Wrigley, Heide" <heide at literacywork.com>

>Reply-To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

>To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>

>Subject: [SpecialTopics 300] Re: interlanguage, fossilization,and

>corrective feedback

>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:40:24 -0400

>

>Hi, Nicole and others who have written on issues of fossilization,

>interlanguage (and implicitly error correction), and building language

>awareness through the explicit teaching of mini-lessons.  We appreciate

>both your examples and your insights

>

>I wanted to make sure that we don't leave new teachers or those who 

come

>to adult ESL from other fields in the dust, so I wanted to stop for a

>minute and add a few definitions:

>

>Interlanguage:  All second language learners make language errors.

>Errors are part of language learning. We make "mistakes" as we try to

>create the target language (L2) in our minds. The language we produce 

in

>the early stages of proficiency is only an approximation of the target

>language, the language we are trying to learn. Since you cannot 

memorize

>a new language, mistakes must happen.  The language that learners use 

on

>their way to proficiency is often referred to as "interlanguage."  As

>students learn and acquire more language through various forms of input

>(noticing; practicing; studying, using the language in various

>contexts), they make fewer language errors and get closer to full

>proficiency. So a student's interlanguage is changing all the time,

>based on the "input" they receive (what they hear and read), and the

>"output" they are asked to produce (speaking, communicating with 

others;

>presenting). There is some evidence that "corrective feedback"

>judiciously applied (more on that later) can help students notice the

>errors they make, correct them, and move forward, self monitoring and

>self-correcting down the road.

>

>As several others pointed out, creating mini-lessons around some of the

>sticky points (where students keep making the same mistake over and

>over) can be really helpful, if students are indeed ready in their

>language development to understand and integrate new knowledge about

>language into their existing knowledge (schema).  You can try to 

explain

>how present perfect or how hypotheticals work in the beginning ESL 

class

>(if I had had the money, I would have bought the car), but your 

students

>will not be ready to take in sophisticated structures of this sort. So

>you will hear "I be here 5 years" or "I am here 5 years" or "I have 5

>years here" but probably not, "I've been here for five years"  - so

>whatever your Level 1 students say when you ask them "how long have you

>been in the United States,"  that's interlanguage.

>

>Fossilization. At any time in the learning process a student may become

>stuck in some level of interlanguage and may make the same mistakes 

over

>and over again - and language development does not seem to move 

forward.

>That's called fossilization. I've know older students who seem to have

>decided that their language skills are close enough and they aren't all

>that interested in improving their grammar. Those may be the students

>that Lynn (Weintraub was talking about). In many cases, the strategies

>we mentioned do get learners moving forward, in others, the learners

>seem so focused on communication that little noticing of form takes

>place. Perhaps asking learners straight out:

>

>Do you want to improve your English?  If so, which part of English?

>(vocabulary, comprehension, pronunciation, grammar). We can then ask

>students to identify language they are not sure about (from an audio

>tape of their story or a written piece). Or as Nicole explains below, 

we

>can keep trying to isolate a pattern and offer insights.

>

>Corrective feedback: This much we know: If corrective feedback (input

>focused on errors, such as "recasting" has to have any effect, it must

>be selective, judiciously applied and offered at optimal times (NOT,

>when the student is trying to tell us something important - correcting

>at that point can be really insulting and most likely make no

>difference).

>

>Language learning is extraordinarily complex and so is language 

teaching

>- knowing what to correct, when, why and how (and when to leave things

>alone) may be one of the most critical skills new teachers need to

>learn.

>

>Examples, anyone?

>

>Heide

>

>________________________________

>

>From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov

>[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Nicole Graves

>Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:12 PM

>To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

>Subject: [SpecialTopics 291] Re: fossilization

>

>Hi all,

>

>Recently, once again, two examples of interlanguage development and

>fossilization jumped at me.

>

>The first one from a high level student who has been here 15 years: the

>person consistently used "privaty" for privacy.  You can see that 

having

>seen the word private on doors at work, at the gym, at school, etc. she

>made up the new word "privaty" applying whatever assumptions she was

>working with at the time.  I might have corrected her by repeating the

>correct form many times but I understood what she wanted to 

communicate.

>My way of correcting her did not work.  It was not enough.  Because

>there was no breakdown in communication, there was no need to alter the

>utterance.  This week, I stopped and pointed out the mistake directly.

>I also mentioned that other people might be confused and possibly would

>not understand.  We talked about the two words.  It was a five minutes

>direct instruction language awareness lesson.   She self-corrected 

after

>that for a short time.  She no longer uses the wrong word.

>

>The second one is from a man who has been here more than 6 years but

>just entered a high intermediate class.  He had a smattering of English

>when he first arrived and got a job immediately.  He continued to

>develop his oral English skills over the years but had no time to 

attend

>classes until now.  When I interviewed him, he said he worked in a

>factory that had 3 shifts [shiftes].  In two months [monses], he would

>change his shift [shifte].  That would allow him to come to class.  I

>asked him how he would write shift and month.  He replied: shifte and

>monte.  You can see how he had applied a plural rule he got somewhere 

to

>use these words in the plural.  Another quick mini-lesson: no final "e"

>in either of these words.  After a final voiceless consonnant sound, 

the

>plural marker "s" is also voiceless.  He also learned to self-correct

>with prompting from the teacher at first and no longer makes the

>mistake.  I do not think that he has internalized the rule but he has

>corrected 2 words that appeared "fossilized".

>

>Nicole B. Graves

>

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: Moira.Taylor at domino1.cuny.edu

>   To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

>   Cc: specialtopics at nifl.gov ; specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov

>   Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:22 AM

>   Subject: [SpecialTopics 286] Re: fossilization

>

>

>   Hi all -

>

>   I've been reading all week, and now how some time to respond.  I

>hope the following is useful.

>

>   First of all, I totally agree awareness is a critical element

>for working on fossilization issues.

>

>   And then, just to put another work into the mix, I was just

>reading a chapter (Chapter 9) in Ilona Leki's book "Understanding ESL

>Writers."  She writes about an interlanguage (an unstable language

>developed during the language learning process).   The student is on

>his/her way to developing the correct L2 form by receiving input, but

>this student stresses and ignores rules based on input.  For example,

>s/he may have learned about 3 person "S" and then overgeneralize the

>rule to modal forms (She cans...)  Eventually, s/he will stop as s/he

>practices more.

>

>   I'm simplifying, but what Leki says at the end of all this is:

>"Normally, as language learners continue recieving input from the 

target

>language, their interlanguage reshapes itself in increasing conformity

>to the L2.  For reasons not completly understoond, however, certain

>interlanguage forms become fixed, or folssilized, and no amount of 

input

>seems to be able to induce a re-analysis of the fossilized form to put

>it more in line with the L2...Fossilized interlanguage forms are

>particularly difficult to alter, possibly because the learner is for

>whaterver reason unmotivated to identify completely with the target

>discours community."

>

>   She has more to say about what to do (this particular chapter is

>about correcting sentence level errors - what, how, why).  Worth a read

>I think.

>

>   Moira Taylor

>

>   Moira Taylor

>   CUNY Adult Literacy Program

>   101 West 31st St., Room 704

>   New York, NY 10001

>   Tel: 212 652 2883

>   Fax: 646 344 7329

>   www.literacy.cuny.edu

>

>

>

>"Nicole Graves" <cnaamh at rcn.com>

>Sent by: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov

>04/12/2007 04:05 PM

>Please respond to specialtopics

>

>         To:        <specialtopics at nifl.gov>

>         cc:

>         Subject:        [SpecialTopics 284] Re: fossilization

>

>

>

>   Lynne,

>

>   Language awareness works for fossilization too.  If you stop the

>student and

>   focus on one point and explain the differences or similarities,

>on the spot,

>   chances are the problem will go away.  When the student is ready

>to become

>   aware and you make the student aware, it always works.  One at a

>time.

>

>   Nicole B. Graves

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: "Lynne Weintraub" <lynneweintraub at hotmail.com>

>   To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>

>   Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 7:36 AM

>   Subject: [SpecialTopics 283] Re: fossilization

>

>

>   > Heide--the GED grammar question reminds me of a related

>question I've had

>   > on

>   > my mind for a long time. Over the years, I have run into a

>number of

>   > students who seem to be "fossilized" in their language

>development. They

>   > get

>   > to a certain point, and then they just don't seem to make any

>progress

>   > anymore in terms of pronunciation, structure, or even

>expanding their

>   > vocabulary. Has any research been done on this problem? Do you

>have any

>   > ideas on how to break through? I'd like to offer some hope

>(and

>   > strategies)

>   > to their tutors, but so far I haven't found any that are

>genuinely

>   > successful.

>   > Lynne Weintraub

>   >

>   >

>   >>From: "Wrigley, Heide" <heide at literacywork.com>

>   >>Reply-To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

>   >>To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>

>   >>Subject: [SpecialTopics 282] Re: (no subject) teaching grammar

>in the

>   >>GEDclass

>   >>Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:41:16 -0400

>   >>

>   >>Hi, Cheryl

>   >>

>   >>I'm sorry it took me awhile to get to the grammar question. I

>just got

>   >>back from D.C. and am off to Austin in the morning, but here

>it goes.

>   >>

>   >>First of all, it is indeed very difficult to help students

>write with

>   >>expression and help them develop their language skills so that

>they are

>   >>able to write sentences that are grammatical. It is quite a

>challenge,

>   >>especially once students are able to communicate quite well

>orally and

>   >>aren't particularly keen on working on their grammar skills.

>   >>

>   >>Complicating the enterprise is the fact that at this level the

>   >>difficulties that students have may differ from learner to

>learner so

>   >>anything you teach to the entire class will probably bore some

>students

>   >>(since it's not their problem) and frustrate others (cause

>they are not

>   >>ready - given where they are in their language development -

>to absorb

>   >>whatever rules you are presenting). So any time there is a

>presentation

>   >>to the entire class on grammar at this level you may only have

>a few

>   >>students who are with you. (Cheryl, correct me if I'm wrong in

>your

>   >>case, since I am speaking in general terms and obviously don't

>know your

>   >>students).

>   >>

>   >>One thing that doesn't work very well, is to have students

>write their

>   >>paragraphs on the board and have everyone else point out the

>grammar

>   >>mistakes. Students generally are not particularly engaged in

>what other

>   >>students have written, particularly if asked to focus on form.

>And

>   >>again, some students may be able to detect errors and correct

>them (and

>   >>what are they learning?) while others are nowhere near ready

>and the

>   >>explanations make no sense to them - again, if some of you

>have had

>   >>great success with this strategy, let us know.

>   >>

>   >>Ok, here then are some strategies that you might try:

>   >>

>   >>1. There is a hypothesis in second language acquisition that

>   >>emphasize the notion of "noticing" and holds that students

>won't be able

>   >>to acquire accurate linguistic forms and structures, unless

>they first

>   >>notice them, that is unless they pay attention to their own

>language and

>   >>the language of others and say to themselves "oh, that's how

>it's said

>   >>(or not said); this is how you write it; this is what people

>do"  And

>   >>once student pay attention to these forms, it becomes easier

>for them to

>   >>use correct forms or edit their own writing. So one suggestion

>I would

>   >>make to build in your students a curiosity about language, an

>eagerness

>   >>(well, may-be not eagerness, but an interest) in seeing how

>language

>   >>works. This notion is also known as "language awareness" and

>it goes a

>   >>long way in helping students pay attention to how the language

>they use

>   >>in expressing their ideas is similar or different from the way

>other

>   >>people say or write things.

>   >> a. One way to help students build language awareness and

>   >>look at their own language output is to ask students to circle

>the kinds

>   >>of phrases or words that appear in their writing that they are

>not sure

>   >>about. Sometimes students a way to self-correct, but you can

>also work

>   >>with them to find better ways of expressing their ideas

>(sometimes that

>   >>means fixing up the grammar and other times that means

>rephrasing a

>   >>sentence and using a different structure altogether, one that

>the

>   >>student is more familiar and comfortable with).  After you

>help students

>   >>use fix-up strategies, you can then ask them to pay attention

>in their

>   >>reading to see if they can identify the structure in question

>in other

>   >>people's writing.

>   >> b. Another way is to have students read their writings into

>   >>a tape recorder and then listen to it again to see if it

>sounds right.

>   >>I first saw this technique used when I was up in Vancouver at

>the

>   >>Invergarry Learning Centre where Janet Isserlis taught for

>awhile. It

>   >>was amazing to see how students would read their essays and

>then

>   >>self-correct as they noticed that the language they used was

>awkward or

>   >>ungrammatical. The tape recorder acted as a tool for editing

>and

>   >>revision that was fun for students to use (many students I've

>known just

>   >>hate rewriting - in their mind it was hard enough to put pen

>to paper

>   >>and get their thoughts in writing, they don't want to prolong

>the

>   >>agony). So the tape recorder adds a new dimension (students

>can just

>   >>take turns using the machine as they finish their writings).

>   >>

>   >>Of course, building language awareness and helping students

>self-monitor

>   >>their writing is only one strategy to help students gain

>greater

>   >>accuracy in their writing. And self-monitoring is not a great

>deal of

>   >>help if students don't have much experience with the standard

>ways of

>   >>writing. So you may want to see if there are some common areas

>of

>   >>difficulties that your students share (subject-verb agreement;

>passive

>   >>constructions; irregular past verbs) and then teach

>mini-lessons that

>   >>zero in on those areas. While some students respond well to

>rules

>   >>because they are good at deductive thinking, others do much

>better when

>   >>you present patterns of language and then draw their attention

>to the

>   >>commonalities within these patterns - so that you help your

>students

>   >>abstract the grammar rules from the sentences they see -

>helping them to

>   >>get to the aha! moment. This approach is also known as

>"discovery

>   >>grammar".

>   >>

>   >>If particular grammar forms are new to students and they need

>to know

>   >>them because there are no simpler work-arounds, they will need

>some

>   >>guided practice in using these forms in different ways so that

>they

>   >>become internalized.  I would then include these structures in

>a grammar

>   >>editing check-list that students can use when they look over

>their own

>   >>writing - once again, building language awareness in the

>process.

>   >>

>   >>Another insight that might help you: Just correcting students

>each time

>   >>you see a mistake in their writing and giving them a quick

>explanation

>   >>generally doesn't work unless the student made a careless

>mistake. This

>   >>sort of "drive-by" grammar lesson usually doesn't stick. It is

>much

>   >>better, generally, to set some time aside, either with an

>individual

>   >>student or with the group and ask the student(s) to focus on a

>   >>linguistic form when they are not in the middle of writing or

>reading

>   >>their writing to others.

>   >>

>   >>Finally - and you will notice a theme here - a lesson that I

>learned as

>   >>an adult second language learner:  Quite a few of the mistakes

>that I

>   >>made in writing English disappeared when I spent more time

>thinking

>   >>about and discussing what it is I wanted to say and write.

>   >>

>   >>Quite often, at the intermediate levels, the language that

>learners use

>   >>is muddled and the sentences awkward or ungrammatical, because

>the

>   >>thinking is still fuzzy. Once a writer is clear on what it is

>exactly

>   >>(s)he wants to say, it is easier to construct sentences that

>are clear

>   >>and concise.

>   >>

>   >>I used this model of talking things through to discover what

>it is you

>   >>want to write with my students when I taught Developmental

>Writing and

>   >>for many students it did make a quite a difference.

>   >>

>   >>Others did need some structured lessons on the grammar they

>had missed

>   >>along the way.

>   >>

>   >>So no silver bullet here (ha! another cultural reference to

>mess with

>   >>the uninitiated).

>   >>

>   >>Good night all!

>   >>

>   >>Heide

>   >>

>   >>________________________________

>   >>

>   >>From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov

>   >>[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of cheryl

>gentry

>   >>Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 9:01 PM

>   >>To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

>   >>Subject: [SpecialTopics 261] (no subject)

>   >>

>   >>I teach GED at CRC...a prison in Norco, Calif. I have many

>students who

>   >>grew up speaking Spanish in the home and have difficulty with

>English

>   >>grammar. Are there any special tricks?

>   >

>   >

>   >>-------------------------------

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