Bruce and all the others who discuss praise
 

 

(David, Janet and John (B/ C/ V), sorry for not directly starting on day
three, I’m not yet through with reading day one and two – and by the way, I
liked your “Good Morning” -  it’s 22:19h here:-)

 

Our ongoing studies suggest that people develop interest in a subject-matter
if they feel they can participate (in the literal meaning of the latin word:
pars capere).  Participation includes that they are somehow concerned with
the consequences of their activities. These consequences might be a good
relationship to a tutor or fellows. It might be the ability to drive a car,
to discuss news or to understand documents. 

 

So, if we want people to stay enrolled, we should think of what is their
reason to come into the class. German-language theory discusses “Subject
Scientific Approaches” – related to critical psychology, i.e. Holzkamp and
Action Theory, i.e. Vygotsky. Similar approaches are provided by John Dewey
(Interest and effort in Education, 1913). 

 

Regarding feedback, a small-scale qualitative study we did in 2003 about
e-learning finds that informative feedback is appreciated very much, when
provided by someone the students accept to be   competent   in his/her
subject-matter.  If not, they don’t even fulfil their tasks, because they
are not interested in his/her feedback (neither positive nor negative,
neither informative nor vague).

 

Best wishes, 

Anke

 

  _____  

Von: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]
Im Auftrag von Bruce C
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Februar 2008 18:01
An: mary; specialtopics at nifl.gov
Betreff: [SpecialTopics 798] Re: Smaller classsizes

 

 Regarding Prof. Wil.i.am and praise:

 

I would summarize Wil.i.am's position regarding praise like this:  

He says that vague, general praise does nothing to help students. It can
confuse them about what is expected and make them focus on which students
are getting the most praise in the classroom. He thinks it's better to give
specific feedback that tells students what they need to improve. Then they
know what to work on. I get that part, but I am not sure if Wil.i.am thinks
it is also important to let students know the bigger picture of where they
are at. If the only feedback I got was what needed to improve, I would not
feel very good about school and my abilities to succeed. 

 

I think it is important to note that Wil.i.am's research was done with
children. One of the big differences between children and adults is that
children go to school by default. It is "normal"  for children to be in
school. Even though children may have doubts and fears about their abilities
to learn, they are not at the same risk for dropping out as adults. 

 

In Adult Literacy, one of our biggest concerns is retention. We cannot
assume that most students will stay enrolled no matter what. I think
students leave school for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it's the other
pressures and responsibilities of life. Sometimes it's because they don't
feel that they are making progress. Sometimes it's because school is a
negative experience. So I praise students whenever possible. The praise
needs to be honest and specific. I think they benefit from hearing that they
are learning and succeeded. It may be something they have not heard much
before. It's also a good way to build a positive relationship between
teacher and student. I don't know if any research backs me up. 

 

Bruce Carmel



mary <mschnec at localnet.com> wrote:

I think Dylan Wiliam's point boiled down to "If you only have X dollars to
spend you should spend them on getting formative assessment in the classroom
because when compared to other reforms/improvements (which presumably
included class size although I don't know that for a fact) formative
assessment techniques made the biggest most powerful difference regardless
of level or country when you compared statistics from many dozens of
studies.

 

We all want smaller classes but if you can't afford both, do formative
assessment first. It is possible to have a smaller class and not do
formative assessment which then will not help those struggling students who
most benefit from it. 

 

Regarding praise, there is good praise and bad praise.This is not a black
white or intuitive issue. The North American formative assessment expert
Anne Davies whose work I HIGHLY recommend, shows ways to give helpful
praise. If you just say, "Great job" the student doesn't know necessarily
what was great about it so as to be able to replicate it and additionally,
sometimes students disbelieve such comments. Thus formative assessment
experts say praise needs to be specific, like "I see you answered every
question!" or whatever. 

 

For more on how praise can be problematic or even damaging, read "Punished
by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn. 

 

 

Mary Schneckenburger

Program Coordinator

Literacy Volunteers-Androscoggin

60 Court St., Auburn, ME 04210

207 333 6601 X 1323

mschnec at juno.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Bruce C <mailto:bcarmel at rocketmail.com>  

To: specialtopics at nifl.gov 

Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 5:29 PM

Subject: [SpecialTopics 777] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes
'not cost effective

 

Regarding small class size....

 

Excuse my language, but regarding the comments of regarding class size
attributed to Prof Dylan Wiliam, Deputy Director and Professor of
Educational Assessment at the Institute of Education, University of London,
I say ...

 

"BALDERDASH!!! and HOGWASH!!!!" 

 

I can't believe anyone who has been a teacher would ever say "...as long as
pupils are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is
generally possible with a class of 30." 

 

Maybe this was taken out of context. Prof. Wiliam (yes it's only one "L"--I
checked.) says some interesting things about formative assessment and
personalized learning on this "Learning About Learning" website: 

 

http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylanw
iliam.asp

 

He does say a few wacky things--like that praise hurts students. 

 

Prof. Wil.i.am. says that formative assessment "encourages teachers to take
constant readings about where students are." He says it's important to do
this "minute by minute, day by day."  That's why I can't believe this dude
really thinks that class size doesn't matter. I think a teacher with 20
students in his/her class can get a better sense of where everyone is than a
teacher with 30 students. 


Sure there may be things we can do that are cheaper than reducing class
size...

 

But so what?

 

If that is how we define "cost effectiveness" why not TRIPLE class size and
save tons of money? 

 

You get my point, right? 

 

from Bruce Carmel

 

 

 

 

 

Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of 
the Institute of Education says, 

 
<http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylan
wiliam.asp>  


"David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote:

Colleagues,

Tom Sticht spotted this on the EducationGuardian.co.uk site and sent 
it for our formative assessment discussion.

-------
Note from Tom Sticht:

This article about formative assessment appears in todays (2/25/08 
Education Guardian online.
-------

To see this story with its related links on the 
EducationGuardian.co.uk site, go to http://education.guardian.co.uk

Smaller class sizes 'not cost effective'
Anthea Lipsett
Monday February 25 2008
The Guardian

Reducing school class sizes in an attempt to raise pupil achievement 
is a waste of money for all but the youngest children, one of the 
country's leading experts on assessment said today.

Cutting class size by 30% gives children the equivalent of four extra 
months of learning a year, but costs around £20,000 for each 
class every year, according to Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of 
the Institute of Education.

He said the more effective method of "formative assessment" - where 
teachers monitor their pupils' progress continuously and provide 
appropriate feedback - could provide eight extra months of 
educational development for only £2,000 per classroom per year.

"It can therefore be 20 times as cost-effective as reducing class 
size in terms of pupil achievement," he told the annual Chartered 
London Teachers Conference today.

"Smaller classes do confer a benefit if pupils are unruly, because 
fewer pupils in a class means less disruption. But as long as pupils 
are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is 
generally possible with a class of 30.

"Smaller classes can also be more cost-effective for five to seven- 
year-olds, but research suggests the class size needs to be reduced 
to 15 or less," he said.

Wiliam added that investments in information communication technology 
have also shown a poor return. But international studies have 
confirmed that formative assessment can double the speed of pupil 
learning.

Some teachers use a "traffic light" system and ask pupils to hold up 
different coloured cards to show whether they have understood what 
they have been told. Red means "no", amber means "partly", and green 
"yes". Pupils are also encouraged to evaluate their own work and 
advise their classmates on how they can improve.

The English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish education departments 
have all provided varying degrees of backing for formative assessment.

After three years of research in both the UK and the US, Wiliam 
concluded that the approach would only take off properly if teachers 
work together in school-based groups to refine their classroom methods.

Wiliam and his co-researchers found that groups of eight to 10 
teachers who meet once a month for at least two years can be most 
effective. "It takes time to change teachers' ways of working, 
particularly if they have been in the classroom for many years," said 
Wiliam. "Simply telling teachers what to do doesn't work."

"For example, most teachers have heard about research from the 1980s 
which shows that if they wait three to five seconds after asking a 
question their pupils' performance improves because they have been 
given some time to think.

"Even so, many teachers are still allowing less than a second for 
pupils to respond. The conclusion we can draw from that is that 
knowing what to do is the easy part of teaching. Actually doing it is 
what's hard."

Wiliam told EducationGuardian.co.uk that teacher quality was key to 
any improvements.

"To reduce class size from 30 to 20 would need 150,000 more teachers 
and that would dilute the quality of teachers," he said.

"We need to change what teachers do day in day out in the classroom 
and we need to get better teachers into the profession."

Martin Johnson, acting deputy general secretary of the Association of 
Teachers and Lecturers, said the research should encourage the 
government to "put its money where its mouth is".

"Staff need to work together to learn how to teach more effectively, 
but schools will need more resources to do this. [Wiliam] reminds us 
that this would be very cost-effective.

"Schools have benefited hugely over the last decade from having more 
classroom based staff but much more training is needed to make their 
deployment fully effective.

"And while the government says it encourages assessment for learning, 
its testing policies have stolen teachers' self-confidence so new 
training must be provided and resourced.

"School staff desperately need a contractual entitlement to training 
which meets their individual needs."

Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited



David J. Rosen
Special Topics Discussion Moderator
djrosen at comcast.net



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