Would you agree that having a class size of a 20 max would be reasonable and effective?

Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
www.luxuriouschoices.net 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cheryl Diamond 
  To: specialtopics at nifl.gov 
  Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:30 AM
  Subject: [SpecialTopics 810] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk:Smaller classsizes'not cost effective


  Hi, all
   
  I read and watched the replies on this issue. Mixed reactions, as a current taxpayer and former teacher, I possess. I am sure that not everyone will accept what I have to say. However, my points should be taken from where they come.
   
  Very hard to say that if you reduce class size you have a perfect solution. Some classes should be smaller but not all. You certainly do raise the price on education as no one seems to give up any monies. As a current taxpayer facing unending increases across the board, I  can say "ENOUGH". 
  But as we all know it is not only the teachers' responsiblity. As a former teacher, I saw good and less good teachers. The same goes for parents and admin people. 
   
  At least the article on class  size produced comment. As a voter who can see how the class size amendment got adopted, I would say we need to revisit the election with less special interest input. 
   
  I am disappointed when 1)I don't have clerks who can't figure the exact amount I hand them, or 2)I hear that people haven't been reading  up on the issues or candidates, 3)or readership in a variety of media is down, and finally, 4) listen to high school graduates don't know what EPA means in our government. Yet, a teacher has a very full plate with the extra paperwork, etc., put on him/her. Less government interference and more qualitative parental interest would be tops on my list.
   
  There is only so much money for education. It should be spent correctly on OUR students. I am truly aware of the immigration issues and how it has obliterated the budget process. Keep it simple as best we can.
   
  Thanks, Cheryl Diamond




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com
    To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
    Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:42:12 -0500
    Subject: [SpecialTopics 791] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes'not cost effective


    Hi everyone,



    Great discussion, it’s so full and rich I don’t know where to begin.  My apologies if what I say below has been noted already – 



    But I will second John’s comments re:  Dylan Wiliam.  I think that the Education Guardian article below takes many of his points out of context.  



    Best to get it from the horse’s mouth I would say:  see Black and Wiliam, Inside the Black Box:   Raising Standards through Classroom Assessment at http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm for starters. 



    I get a ton out of his notion of Assessment FOR Learning versus Assessment OF Learning.



    Marie Cora

    NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

    http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/discussions.html











    -----Original Message-----
    From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of John Benseman
    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 PM
    To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
    Subject: [SpecialTopics 779] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes'not cost effective



    I don’t know the specific words that Dylan Wiliam uses about class size, but I am guessing that what he says is that there is no authoritative research that shows that class size is irrefutably related to student learning. This is not to say that class size doesn’t matter, it merely says that the research over many 100s of studies is inconclusive to date.



    As I am sure that the great majority of people on this listserv will attest, we all feel intuitively that class size DOES matter – it’s just that there is no research to back this conclusion. The jury, so to speak, is still out on this dimension of teaching (as it is in many other areas).



    The second point re saying that ‘praise hurts students’: I couldn’t find the specific reference, but again interpreting what I think Wiliam would say is something along the lines of: just praising students for the sake of praising does them little good. What is needed however is clear and realistic feedback on where they are at in their learning. If that comes with a dollop of praise, then that’s great, but praise per se is not sufficient.



    I think that we can fall in to a trap of thinking that learners invariably want/need support (which they do at times), but they also need to be challenged, which means that we need to give them realistic feedback on how they are progressing (or not).



    Regards, John



    PS I am not a paid servant of Dylan Wiliam, but I am a fan of his research…



    John Benseman

    *   john.benseman at criticalinsight.co.nz

    (   641 9 627 1882  Cell  027 454 0683

    - 52a Bolton St, Blockhouse Bay, Auckland 0600, NZ


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C
    Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2008 11:29 a.m.
    To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
    Subject: [SpecialTopics 777] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes 'not cost effective



    Regarding small class size....



    Excuse my language, but regarding the comments of regarding class size attributed to Prof Dylan Wiliam, Deputy Director and Professor of Educational Assessment at the Institute of Education, University of London, I say ...



    "BALDERDASH!!! and HOGWASH!!!!" 



    I can't believe anyone who has been a teacher would ever say "...as long as pupils are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is generally possible with a class of 30." 



    Maybe this was taken out of context. Prof. Wiliam (yes it's only one "L"--I checked.) says some interesting things about formative assessment and personalized learning on this "Learning About Learning" website: 



    http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylanwiliam.asp



    He does say a few wacky things--like that praise hurts students. 



    Prof. Wil.i.am. says that formative assessment "encourages teachers to take constant readings about where students are." He says it's important to do this "minute by minute, day by day."  That's why I can't believe this dude really thinks that class size doesn't matter. I think a teacher with 20 students in his/her class can get a better sense of where everyone is than a teacher with 30 students. 


    Sure there may be things we can do that are cheaper than reducing class size...



    But so what?



    If that is how we define "cost effectiveness" why not TRIPLE class size and save tons of money? 



    You get my point, right? 



    from Bruce Carmel











    Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of 
    the Institute of Education says, 




    "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote:

      Colleagues,

      Tom Sticht spotted this on the EducationGuardian.co.uk site and sent 
      it for our formative assessment discussion.

      -------
      Note from Tom Sticht:

      This article about formative assessment appears in todays (2/25/08 
      Education Guardian online.
      -------

      To see this story with its related links on the 
      EducationGuardian.co.uk site, go to http://education.guardian.co.uk

      Smaller class sizes 'not cost effective'
      Anthea Lipsett
      Monday February 25 2008
      The Guardian

      Reducing school class sizes in an attempt to raise pupil achievement 
      is a waste of money for all but the youngest children, one of the 
      country's leading experts on assessment said today.

      Cutting class size by 30% gives children the equivalent of four extra 
      months of learning a year, but costs around £20,000 for each 
      class every year, according to Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of 
      the Institute of Education.

      He said the more effective method of "formative assessment" - where 
      teachers monitor their pupils' progress continuously and provide 
      appropriate feedback - could provide eight extra months of 
      educational development for only £2,000 per classroom per year.

      "It can therefore be 20 times as cost-effective as reducing class 
      size in terms of pupil achievement," he told the annual Chartered 
      London Teachers Conference today.

      "Smaller classes do confer a benefit if pupils are unruly, because 
      fewer pupils in a class means less disruption. But as long as pupils 
      are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is 
      generally possible with a class of 30.

      "Smaller classes can also be more cost-effective for five to seven- 
      year-olds, but research suggests the class size needs to be reduced 
      to 15 or less," he said.

      Wiliam added that investments in information communication technology 
      have also shown a poor return. But international studies have 
      confirmed that formative assessment can double the speed of pupil 
      learning.

      Some teachers use a "traffic light" system and ask pupils to hold up 
      different coloured cards to show whether they have understood what 
      they have been told. Red means "no", amber means "partly", and green 
      "yes". Pupils are also encouraged to evaluate their own work and 
      advise their classmates on how they can improve.

      The English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish education departments 
      have all provided varying degrees of backing for formative assessment.

      After three years of research in both the UK and the US, Wiliam 
      concluded that the approach would only take off properly if teachers 
      work together in school-based groups to refine their classroom methods.

      Wiliam and his co-researchers found that groups of eight to 10 
      teachers who meet once a month for at least two years can be most 
      effective. "It takes time to change teachers' ways of working, 
      particularly if they have been in the classroom for many years," said 
      Wiliam. "Simply telling teachers what to do doesn't work."

      "For example, most teachers have heard about research from the 1980s 
      which shows that if they wait three to five seconds after asking a 
      question their pupils' performance improves because they have been 
      given some time to think.

      "Even so, many teachers are still allowing less than a second for 
      pupils to respond. The conclusion we can draw from that is that 
      knowing what to do is the easy part of teaching. Actually doing it is 
      what's hard."

      Wiliam told EducationGuardian.co.uk that teacher quality was key to 
      any improvements.

      "To reduce class size from 30 to 20 would need 150,000 more teachers 
      and that would dilute the quality of teachers," he said.

      "We need to change what teachers do day in day out in the classroom 
      and we need to get better teachers into the profession."

      Martin Johnson, acting deputy general secretary of the Association of 
      Teachers and Lecturers, said the research should encourage the 
      government to "put its money where its mouth is".

      "Staff need to work together to learn how to teach more effectively, 
      but schools will need more resources to do this. [Wiliam] reminds us 
      that this would be very cost-effective.

      "Schools have benefited hugely over the last decade from having more 
      classroom based staff but much more training is needed to make their 
      deployment fully effective.

      "And while the government says it encourages assessment for learning, 
      its testing policies have stolen teachers' self-confidence so new 
      training must be provided and resourced.

      "School staff desperately need a contractual entitlement to training 
      which meets their individual needs."

      Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited



      David J. Rosen
      Special Topics Discussion Moderator
      djrosen at comcast.net



      -------------------------------
      National Institute for Literacy
      Special Topics mailing list
      SpecialTopics at nifl.gov
      To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopics
      Email delivered to bcarmel at rocketmail.com



      


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  -------------------------------
  National Institute for Literacy
  Special Topics mailing list
  SpecialTopics at nifl.gov
  To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopics
  Email delivered to kgotthardt at comcast.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/specialtopics/attachments/20080228/5f4c8362/attachment.html