Cheryl

Can you say more about what you mean by OUR students?

Janet



From: Cheryl Diamond <cheryl_diamond at msn.com>
Reply-To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:30:33 -0500
To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>
Subject: [SpecialTopics 810] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller
classsizes'not cost effective

Hi, all
 
I read and watched the replies on this issue. Mixed reactions, as a current
taxpayer and former teacher, I possess. I am sure that not everyone will
accept what I have to say. However, my points should be taken from where
they come.
 
Very hard to say that if you reduce class size you have a perfect solution.
Some classes should be smaller but not all. You certainly do raise the price
on education as no one seems to give up any monies. As a current taxpayer
facing unending increases across the board, I  can say "ENOUGH".
But as we all know it is not only the teachers' responsiblity. As a former
teacher, I saw good and less good teachers. The same goes for parents and
admin people. 
 
At least the article on class  size produced comment. As a voter who can see
how the class size amendment got adopted, I would say we need to revisit the
election with less special interest input.
 
I am disappointed when 1)I don't have clerks who can't figure the exact
amount I hand them, or 2)I hear that people haven't been reading  up on the
issues or candidates, 3)or readership in a variety of media is down, and
finally, 4) listen to high school graduates don't know what EPA means in our
government. Yet, a teacher has a very full plate with the extra paperwork,
etc., put on him/her. Less government interference and more qualitative
parental interest would be tops on my list.
 
There is only so much money for education. It should be spent correctly on
OUR students. I am truly aware of the immigration issues and how it has
obliterated the budget process. Keep it simple as best we can.
 
Thanks, Cheryl Diamond



> 

> From: marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:42:12 -0500

> Subject: [SpecialTopics 791] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller

> classsizes'not cost effective

> 

> Hi everyone,

> 

>  

> 

> Great discussion, it¹s so full and rich I don¹t know where to begin.  My

> apologies if what I say below has been noted already ­

> 

>  

> 

> But I will second John¹s comments re:  Dylan Wiliam.  I think that the

> Education Guardian article below takes many of his points out of context.

> 

>  

> 

> Best to get it from the horse¹s mouth I would say:  see Black and Wiliam,

> Inside the Black Box:   Raising Standards through Classroom Assessment at

> http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm for starters.

> 

>  

> 

> I get a ton out of his notion of Assessment FOR Learning versus Assessment OF

> Learning.

> 

>  

> 

> Marie Cora

> 

> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

> 

> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/discussions.html

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]

> On Behalf Of John Benseman

> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 PM

> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

> Subject: [SpecialTopics 779] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller

> classsizes'not cost effective

> 

>  

> 

> I don¹t know the specific words that Dylan Wiliam uses about class size, but I

> am guessing that what he says is that there is no authoritative research that

> shows that class size is irrefutably related to student learning. This is not

> to say that class size doesn¹t matter, it merely says that the research over

> many 100s of studies is inconclusive to date.

> 

>  

> 

> As I am sure that the great majority of people on this listserv will attest,

> we all feel intuitively that class size DOES matter ­ it¹s just that there is

> no research to back this conclusion. The jury, so to speak, is still out on

> this dimension of teaching (as it is in many other areas).

> 

>  

> 

> The second point re saying that Œpraise hurts students¹: I couldn¹t find the

> specific reference, but again interpreting what I think Wiliam would say is

> something along the lines of: just praising students for the sake of praising

> does them little good. What is needed however is clear and realistic feedback

> on where they are at in their learning. If that comes with a dollop of praise,

> then that¹s great, but praise per se is not sufficient.

> 

>  

> 

> I think that we can fall in to a trap of thinking that learners invariably

> want/need support (which they do at times), but they also need to be

> challenged, which means that we need to give them realistic feedback on how

> they are progressing (or not).

> 

>  

> 

> Regards, John

> 

>  

> 

> PS I am not a paid servant of Dylan Wiliam, but I am a fan of his researchŠ

> 

>  

> 

> John Benseman

> 

> *   john.benseman at criticalinsight.co.nz

> 

> (   641 9 627 1882  Cell  027 454 0683

> 

> - 52a Bolton St, Blockhouse Bay, Auckland 0600, NZ

> 

> 

> From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]

> On Behalf Of Bruce C

> Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2008 11:29 a.m.

> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

> Subject: [SpecialTopics 777] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes

> 'not cost effective

> 

>  

> 

> Regarding small class size....

> 

>  

> 

> Excuse my language, but regarding the comments of regarding class size

> attributed to Prof Dylan Wiliam, Deputy Director and Professor of Educational

> Assessment at the Institute of Education, University of London, I say ...

> 

>  

> 

> "BALDERDASH!!! and HOGWASH!!!!"

> 

>  

> 

> I can't believe anyone who has been a teacher would ever say "...as long as

> pupils are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is generally

> possible with a class of 30."

> 

>  

> 

> Maybe this was taken out of context. Prof. Wiliam (yes it's only one "L"--I

> checked.) says some interesting things about formative assessment and

> personalized learning on this "Learning About Learning" website:

> 

>  

> 

> http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylanwil

> iam.asp

> 

>  

> 

> He does say a few wacky things--like that praise hurts students.

> 

>  

> 

> Prof. Wil.i.am. says that formative assessment "encourages teachers to take

> constant readings about where students are." He says it's important to do this

> "minute by minute, day by day."  That's why I can't believe this dude really

> thinks that class size doesn't matter. I think a teacher with 20 students in

> his/her class can get a better sense of where everyone is than a teacher with

> 30 students. 

> 

> 

> Sure there may be things we can do that are cheaper than reducing class

> size...

> 

>  

> 

> But so what?

> 

>  

> 

> If that is how we define "cost effectiveness" why not TRIPLE class size and

> save tons of money?

> 

>  

> 

> You get my point, right?

> 

>  

> 

> from Bruce Carmel

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

> Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of

> the Institute of Education says,

> 

>  

> <http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylanwi

> liam.asp>  

> 

> 

> "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote:

>> 

>> Colleagues,

>> 

>> Tom Sticht spotted this on the EducationGuardian.co.uk site and sent

>> it for our formative assessment discussion.

>> 

>> -------

>> Note from Tom Sticht:

>> 

>> This article about formative assessment appears in todays (2/25/08

>> Education Guardian online.

>> -------

>> 

>> To see this story with its related links on the

>> EducationGuardian.co.uk site, go to http://education.guardian.co.uk

>> 

>> Smaller class sizes 'not cost effective'

>> Anthea Lipsett

>> Monday February 25 2008

>> The Guardian

>> 

>> Reducing school class sizes in an attempt to raise pupil achievement

>> is a waste of money for all but the youngest children, one of the

>> country's leading experts on assessment said today.

>> 

>> Cutting class size by 30% gives children the equivalent of four extra

>> months of learning a year, but costs around £20,000 for each

>> class every year, according to Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of

>> the Institute of Education.

>> 

>> He said the more effective method of "formative assessment" - where

>> teachers monitor their pupils' progress continuously and provide

>> appropriate feedback - could provide eight extra months of

>> educational development for only £2,000 per classroom per year.

>> 

>> "It can therefore be 20 times as cost-effective as reducing class

>> size in terms of pupil achievement," he told the annual Chartered

>> London Teachers Conference today.

>> 

>> "Smaller classes do confer a benefit if pupils are unruly, because

>> fewer pupils in a class means less disruption. But as long as pupils

>> are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is

>> generally possible with a class of 30.

>> 

>> "Smaller classes can also be more cost-effective for five to seven-

>> year-olds, but research suggests the class size needs to be reduced

>> to 15 or less," he said.

>> 

>> Wiliam added that investments in information communication technology

>> have also shown a poor return. But international studies have

>> confirmed that formative assessment can double the speed of pupil

>> learning.

>> 

>> Some teachers use a "traffic light" system and ask pupils to hold up

>> different coloured cards to show whether they have understood what

>> they have been told. Red means "no", amber means "partly", and green

>> "yes". Pupils are also encouraged to evaluate their own work and

>> advise their classmates on how they can improve.

>> 

>> The English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish education departments

>> have all provided varying degrees of backing for formative assessment.

>> 

>> After three years of research in both the UK and the US, Wiliam

>> concluded that the approach would only take off properly if teachers

>> work together in school-based groups to refine their classroom methods.

>> 

>> Wiliam and his co-researchers found that groups of eight to 10

>> teachers who meet once a month for at least two years can be most

>> effective. "It takes time to change teachers' ways of working,

>> particularly if they have been in the classroom for many years," said

>> Wiliam. "Simply telling teachers what to do doesn't work."

>> 

>> "For example, most teachers have heard about research from the 1980s

>> which shows that if they wait three to five seconds after asking a

>> question their pupils' performance improves because they have been

>> given some time to think.

>> 

>> "Even so, many teachers are still allowing less than a second for

>> pupils to respond. The conclusion we can draw from that is that

>> knowing what to do is the easy part of teaching. Actually doing it is

>> what's hard."

>> 

>> Wiliam told EducationGuardian.co.uk that teacher quality was key to

>> any improvements.

>> 

>> "To reduce class size from 30 to 20 would need 150,000 more teachers

>> and that would dilute the quality of teachers," he said.

>> 

>> "We need to change what teachers do day in day out in the classroom

>> and we need to get better teachers into the profession."

>> 

>> Martin Johnson, acting deputy general secretary of the Association of

>> Teachers and Lecturers, said the research should encourage the

>> government to "put its money where its mouth is".

>> 

>> "Staff need to work together to learn how to teach more effectively,

>> but schools will need more resources to do this. [Wiliam] reminds us

>> that this would be very cost-effective.

>> 

>> "Schools have benefited hugely over the last decade from having more

>> classroom based staff but much more training is needed to make their

>> deployment fully effective.

>> 

>> "And while the government says it encourages assessment for learning,

>> its testing policies have stolen teachers' self-confidence so new

>> training must be provided and resourced.

>> 

>> "School staff desperately need a contractual entitlement to training

>> which meets their individual needs."

>> 

>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> David J. Rosen

>> Special Topics Discussion Moderator

>> djrosen at comcast.net

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> -------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Special Topics mailing list

>> SpecialTopics at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopics

>> Email delivered to bcarmel at rocketmail.com

> 

>  

> 

>   

> 

> 

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs>



-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Special Topics mailing list
SpecialTopics at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopics
Email delivered to janet_isserlis at brown.edu

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/specialtopics/attachments/20080228/e3f2d5a9/attachment.html