I¹m not quite sure what you are implying, Cheryl.

It may just be the way you have expressed yourself, but I¹m confused about
what exactly you are saying in the last sentence but one.
How Œcorrectly¹ ? and who are ŒOUR¹ students? and what is the Œit¹ that Œhas
obliterated the budget process¹? How has it done so?

My first impression is a bit scary, but I¹m hoping I have mis-read your
intentions here

Thanks
Frances


On 28/2/08 13:30, "Cheryl Diamond" <cheryl_diamond at msn.com> wrote:


> Hi, all

>  

> I read and watched the replies on this issue. Mixed reactions, as a current

> taxpayer and former teacher, I possess. I am sure that not everyone will

> accept what I have to say. However, my points should be taken from where they

> come.

>  

> Very hard to say that if you reduce class size you have a perfect solution.

> Some classes should be smaller but not all. You certainly do raise the price

> on education as no one seems to give up any monies. As a current taxpayer

> facing unending increases across the board, I  can say "ENOUGH".

> But as we all know it is not only the teachers' responsiblity. As a former

> teacher, I saw good and less good teachers. The same goes for parents and

> admin people. 

>  

> At least the article on class  size produced comment. As a voter who can see

> how the class size amendment got adopted, I would say we need to revisit the

> election with less special interest input.

>  

> I am disappointed when 1)I don't have clerks who can't figure the exact amount

> I hand them, or 2)I hear that people haven't been reading  up on the issues or

> candidates, 3)or readership in a variety of media is down, and finally, 4)

> listen to high school graduates don't know what EPA means in our government.

> Yet, a teacher has a very full plate with the extra paperwork, etc., put on

> him/her. Less government interference and more qualitative parental interest

> would be tops on my list.

>  

> There is only so much money for education. It should be spent correctly on OUR

> students. I am truly aware of the immigration issues and how it has

> obliterated the budget process. Keep it simple as best we can.

>  

> Thanks, Cheryl Diamond

> 

> 

>> 

>> From: marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

>> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

>> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:42:12 -0500

>> Subject: [SpecialTopics 791] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller

>> classsizes'not cost effective

>> 

>> Hi everyone,

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Great discussion, it¹s so full and rich I don¹t know where to begin.  My

>> apologies if what I say below has been noted already ­

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> But I will second John¹s comments re:  Dylan Wiliam.  I think that the

>> Education Guardian article below takes many of his points out of context.

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Best to get it from the horse¹s mouth I would say:  see Black and Wiliam,

>> Inside the Black Box:   Raising Standards through Classroom Assessment at

>> http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm for starters.

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> I get a ton out of his notion of Assessment FOR Learning versus Assessment OF

>> Learning.

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Marie Cora

>> 

>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>> 

>> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/discussions.html

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]

>> On Behalf Of John Benseman

>> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 PM

>> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

>> Subject: [SpecialTopics 779] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller

>> classsizes'not cost effective

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> I don¹t know the specific words that Dylan Wiliam uses about class size, but

>> I am guessing that what he says is that there is no authoritative research

>> that shows that class size is irrefutably related to student learning. This

>> is not to say that class size doesn¹t matter, it merely says that the

>> research over many 100s of studies is inconclusive to date.

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> As I am sure that the great majority of people on this listserv will attest,

>> we all feel intuitively that class size DOES matter ­ it¹s just that there is

>> no research to back this conclusion. The jury, so to speak, is still out on

>> this dimension of teaching (as it is in many other areas).

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> The second point re saying that Œpraise hurts students¹: I couldn¹t find the

>> specific reference, but again interpreting what I think Wiliam would say is

>> something along the lines of: just praising students for the sake of praising

>> does them little good. What is needed however is clear and realistic feedback

>> on where they are at in their learning. If that comes with a dollop of

>> praise, then that¹s great, but praise per se is not sufficient.

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> I think that we can fall in to a trap of thinking that learners invariably

>> want/need support (which they do at times), but they also need to be

>> challenged, which means that we need to give them realistic feedback on how

>> they are progressing (or not).

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Regards, John

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> PS I am not a paid servant of Dylan Wiliam, but I am a fan of his researchŠ

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> John Benseman

>> 

>> *   john.benseman at criticalinsight.co.nz

>> 

>> (   641 9 627 1882  Cell  027 454 0683

>> 

>> - 52a Bolton St, Blockhouse Bay, Auckland 0600, NZ

>> 

>> 

>> From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]

>> On Behalf Of Bruce C

>> Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2008 11:29 a.m.

>> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

>> Subject: [SpecialTopics 777] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes

>> 'not cost effective

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Regarding small class size....

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Excuse my language, but regarding the comments of regarding class size

>> attributed to Prof Dylan Wiliam, Deputy Director and Professor of Educational

>> Assessment at the Institute of Education, University of London, I say ...

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> "BALDERDASH!!! and HOGWASH!!!!"

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> I can't believe anyone who has been a teacher would ever say "...as long as

>> pupils are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is generally

>> possible with a class of 30."

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Maybe this was taken out of context. Prof. Wiliam (yes it's only one "L"--I

>> checked.) says some interesting things about formative assessment and

>> personalized learning on this "Learning About Learning" website:

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylanwi

>> liam.asp

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> He does say a few wacky things--like that praise hurts students.

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Prof. Wil.i.am. says that formative assessment "encourages teachers to take

>> constant readings about where students are." He says it's important to do

>> this "minute by minute, day by day."  That's why I can't believe this dude

>> really thinks that class size doesn't matter. I think a teacher with 20

>> students in his/her class can get a better sense of where everyone is than a

>> teacher with 30 students.

>> 

>> 

>> Sure there may be things we can do that are cheaper than reducing class

>> size...

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> But so what?

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> If that is how we define "cost effectiveness" why not TRIPLE class size and

>> save tons of money?

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> You get my point, right?

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> from Bruce Carmel

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> 

>> Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of

>> the Institute of Education says,

>> 

>>  

>> <http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylanw

>> iliam.asp>  

>> 

>> 

>> "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote:

>>> 

>>> Colleagues,

>>> 

>>> Tom Sticht spotted this on the EducationGuardian.co.uk site and sent

>>> it for our formative assessment discussion.

>>> 

>>> -------

>>> Note from Tom Sticht:

>>> 

>>> This article about formative assessment appears in todays (2/25/08

>>> Education Guardian online.

>>> -------

>>> 

>>> To see this story with its related links on the

>>> EducationGuardian.co.uk site, go to http://education.guardian.co.uk

>>> 

>>> Smaller class sizes 'not cost effective'

>>> Anthea Lipsett

>>> Monday February 25 2008

>>> The Guardian

>>> 

>>> Reducing school class sizes in an attempt to raise pupil achievement

>>> is a waste of money for all but the youngest children, one of the

>>> country's leading experts on assessment said today.

>>> 

>>> Cutting class size by 30% gives children the equivalent of four extra

>>> months of learning a year, but costs around £20,000 for each

>>> class every year, according to Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of

>>> the Institute of Education.

>>> 

>>> He said the more effective method of "formative assessment" - where

>>> teachers monitor their pupils' progress continuously and provide

>>> appropriate feedback - could provide eight extra months of

>>> educational development for only £2,000 per classroom per year.

>>> 

>>> "It can therefore be 20 times as cost-effective as reducing class

>>> size in terms of pupil achievement," he told the annual Chartered

>>> London Teachers Conference today.

>>> 

>>> "Smaller classes do confer a benefit if pupils are unruly, because

>>> fewer pupils in a class means less disruption. But as long as pupils

>>> are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is

>>> generally possible with a class of 30.

>>> 

>>> "Smaller classes can also be more cost-effective for five to seven-

>>> year-olds, but research suggests the class size needs to be reduced

>>> to 15 or less," he said.

>>> 

>>> Wiliam added that investments in information communication technology

>>> have also shown a poor return. But international studies have

>>> confirmed that formative assessment can double the speed of pupil

>>> learning.

>>> 

>>> Some teachers use a "traffic light" system and ask pupils to hold up

>>> different coloured cards to show whether they have understood what

>>> they have been told. Red means "no", amber means "partly", and green

>>> "yes". Pupils are also encouraged to evaluate their own work and

>>> advise their classmates on how they can improve.

>>> 

>>> The English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish education departments

>>> have all provided varying degrees of backing for formative assessment.

>>> 

>>> After three years of research in both the UK and the US, Wiliam

>>> concluded that the approach would only take off properly if teachers

>>> work together in school-based groups to refine their classroom methods.

>>> 

>>> Wiliam and his co-researchers found that groups of eight to 10

>>> teachers who meet once a month for at least two years can be most

>>> effective. "It takes time to change teachers' ways of working,

>>> particularly if they have been in the classroom for many years," said

>>> Wiliam. "Simply telling teachers what to do doesn't work."

>>> 

>>> "For example, most teachers have heard about research from the 1980s

>>> which shows that if they wait three to five seconds after asking a

>>> question their pupils' performance improves because they have been

>>> given some time to think.

>>> 

>>> "Even so, many teachers are still allowing less than a second for

>>> pupils to respond. The conclusion we can draw from that is that

>>> knowing what to do is the easy part of teaching. Actually doing it is

>>> what's hard."

>>> 

>>> Wiliam told EducationGuardian.co.uk that teacher quality was key to

>>> any improvements.

>>> 

>>> "To reduce class size from 30 to 20 would need 150,000 more teachers

>>> and that would dilute the quality of teachers," he said.

>>> 

>>> "We need to change what teachers do day in day out in the classroom

>>> and we need to get better teachers into the profession."

>>> 

>>> Martin Johnson, acting deputy general secretary of the Association of

>>> Teachers and Lecturers, said the research should encourage the

>>> government to "put its money where its mouth is".

>>> 

>>> "Staff need to work together to learn how to teach more effectively,

>>> but schools will need more resources to do this. [Wiliam] reminds us

>>> that this would be very cost-effective.

>>> 

>>> "Schools have benefited hugely over the last decade from having more

>>> classroom based staff but much more training is needed to make their

>>> deployment fully effective.

>>> 

>>> "And while the government says it encourages assessment for learning,

>>> its testing policies have stolen teachers' self-confidence so new

>>> training must be provided and resourced.

>>> 

>>> "School staff desperately need a contractual entitlement to training

>>> which meets their individual needs."

>>> 

>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> David J. Rosen

>>> Special Topics Discussion Moderator

>>> djrosen at comcast.net

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> -------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>> Special Topics mailing list

>>> SpecialTopics at nifl.gov

>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopics

>>> Email delivered to bcarmel at rocketmail.com

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>   

>> 

>> 

>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs>

> 

> 

> -------------------------------

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