On Feb 28, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Cheryl Diamond wrote:


> Hi, all

>

> I read and watched the replies on this issue. Mixed reactions, as a  

> current taxpayer and former teacher, I possess. I am sure that not  

> everyone will accept what I have to say. However, my points should  

> be taken from where they come.

>

> Very hard to say that if you reduce class size you have a perfect  

> solution. Some classes should be smaller but not all. You certainly  

> do raise the price on education as no one seems to give up any  

> monies. As a current taxpayer facing unending increases across the  

> board, I  can say "ENOUGH".

> But as we all know it is not only the teachers' responsiblity. As a  

> former teacher, I saw good and less good teachers. The same goes  

> for parents and admin people.

>

> At least the article on class  size produced comment. As a voter  

> who can see how the class size amendment got adopted, I would say  

> we need to revisit the election with less special interest input.

>

> I am disappointed when 1)I don't have clerks who can't figure the  

> exact amount I hand them, or 2)I hear that people haven't been  

> reading  up on the issues or candidates, 3)or readership in a  

> variety of media is down, and finally, 4) listen to high school  

> graduates don't know what EPA means in our government. Yet, a  

> teacher has a very full plate with the extra paperwork, etc., put  

> on him/her. Less government interference and more qualitative  

> parental interest would be tops on my list.

>

> There is only so much money for education. It should be spent  

> correctly on OUR students. I am truly aware of the immigration  

> issues and how it has obliterated the budget process. Keep it  

> simple as best we can.

>

> Thanks, Cheryl Diamond

>

>

> From: marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:42:12 -0500

> Subject: [SpecialTopics 791] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller  

> classsizes'not cost effective

>

> Hi everyone,

>

>

> Great discussion, it’s so full and rich I don’t know where to  

> begin.  My apologies if what I say below has been noted already –

>

>

> But I will second John’s comments re:  Dylan Wiliam.  I think that  

> the Education Guardian article below takes many of his points out  

> of context.

>

>

> Best to get it from the horse’s mouth I would say:  see Black and  

> Wiliam, Inside the Black Box:   Raising Standards through Classroom  

> Assessment at http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm for starters.

>

>

> I get a ton out of his notion of Assessment FOR Learning versus  

> Assessment OF Learning.

>

>

> Marie Cora

>

> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>

> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/discussions.html

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of John Benseman

> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 PM

> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

> Subject: [SpecialTopics 779] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller  

> classsizes'not cost effective

>

>

> I don’t know the specific words that Dylan Wiliam uses about class  

> size, but I am guessing that what he says is that there is no  

> authoritative research that shows that class size is irrefutably  

> related to student learning. This is not to say that class size  

> doesn’t matter, it merely says that the research over many 100s of  

> studies is inconclusive to date.

>

>

> As I am sure that the great majority of people on this listserv  

> will attest, we all feel intuitively that class size DOES matter –  

> it’s just that there is no research to back this conclusion. The  

> jury, so to speak, is still out on this dimension of teaching (as  

> it is in many other areas).

>

>

> The second point re saying that ‘praise hurts students’: I couldn’t  

> find the specific reference, but again interpreting what I think  

> Wiliam would say is something along the lines of: just praising  

> students for the sake of praising does them little good. What is  

> needed however is clear and realistic feedback on where they are at  

> in their learning. If that comes with a dollop of praise, then  

> that’s great, but praise per se is not sufficient.

>

>

> I think that we can fall in to a trap of thinking that learners  

> invariably want/need support (which they do at times), but they  

> also need to be challenged, which means that we need to give them  

> realistic feedback on how they are progressing (or not).

>

>

> Regards, John

>

>

> PS I am not a paid servant of Dylan Wiliam, but I am a fan of his  

> research…

>

>

> John Benseman

>

> *   john.benseman at criticalinsight.co.nz

>

> (   641 9 627 1882  Cell  027 454 0683

>

> - 52a Bolton St, Blockhouse Bay, Auckland 0600, NZ

>

> From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C

> Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2008 11:29 a.m.

> To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

> Subject: [SpecialTopics 777] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller  

> classsizes 'not cost effective

>

>

> Regarding small class size....

>

>

> Excuse my language, but regarding the comments of regarding class  

> size attributed to Prof Dylan Wiliam, Deputy Director and Professor  

> of Educational Assessment at the Institute of Education, University  

> of London, I say ...

>

>

> "BALDERDASH!!! and HOGWASH!!!!"

>

>

> I can't believe anyone who has been a teacher would ever say "...as  

> long as pupils are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class  

> of 20 is generally possible with a class of 30."

>

>

> Maybe this was taken out of context. Prof. Wiliam (yes it's only  

> one "L"--I checked.) says some interesting things about formative  

> assessment and personalized learning on this "Learning About  

> Learning" website:

>

>

> http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/ 

> biogdylanwiliam.asp

>

>

> He does say a few wacky things--like that praise hurts students.

>

>

> Prof. Wil.i.am. says that formative assessment "encourages teachers  

> to take constant readings about where students are." He says it's  

> important to do this "minute by minute, day by day."  That's why I  

> can't believe this dude really thinks that class size doesn't  

> matter. I think a teacher with 20 students in his/her class can get  

> a better sense of where everyone is than a teacher with 30 students.

>

>

> Sure there may be things we can do that are cheaper than reducing  

> class size...

>

>

> But so what?

>

>

> If that is how we define "cost effectiveness" why not TRIPLE class  

> size and save tons of money?

>

>

> You get my point, right?

>

>

> from Bruce Carmel

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of

> the Institute of Education says,

>

>

>

>

> "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote:

>

> Colleagues,

>

> Tom Sticht spotted this on the EducationGuardian.co.uk site and sent

> it for our formative assessment discussion.

>

> -------

> Note from Tom Sticht:

>

> This article about formative assessment appears in todays (2/25/08

> Education Guardian online.

> -------

>

> To see this story with its related links on the

> EducationGuardian.co.uk site, go to http://education.guardian.co.uk

>

> Smaller class sizes 'not cost effective'

> Anthea Lipsett

> Monday February 25 2008

> The Guardian

>

> Reducing school class sizes in an attempt to raise pupil achievement

> is a waste of money for all but the youngest children, one of the

> country's leading experts on assessment said today.

>

> Cutting class size by 30% gives children the equivalent of four extra

> months of learning a year, but costs around £20,000 for each

> class every year, according to Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of

> the Institute of Education.

>

> He said the more effective method of "formative assessment" - where

> teachers monitor their pupils' progress continuously and provide

> appropriate feedback - could provide eight extra months of

> educational development for only £2,000 per classroom per year.

>

> "It can therefore be 20 times as cost-effective as reducing class

> size in terms of pupil achievement," he told the annual Chartered

> London Teachers Conference today.

>

> "Smaller classes do confer a benefit if pupils are unruly, because

> fewer pupils in a class means less disruption. But as long as pupils

> are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is

> generally possible with a class of 30.

>

> "Smaller classes can also be more cost-effective for five to seven-

> year-olds, but research suggests the class size needs to be reduced

> to 15 or less," he said.

>

> Wiliam added that investments in information communication technology

> have also shown a poor return. But international studies have

> confirmed that formative assessment can double the speed of pupil

> learning.

>

> Some teachers use a "traffic light" system and ask pupils to hold up

> different coloured cards to show whether they have understood what

> they have been told. Red means "no", amber means "partly", and green

> "yes". Pupils are also encouraged to evaluate their own work and

> advise their classmates on how they can improve.

>

> The English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish education departments

> have all provided varying degrees of backing for formative assessment.

>

> After three years of research in both the UK and the US, Wiliam

> concluded that the approach would only take off properly if teachers

> work together in school-based groups to refine their classroom  

> methods.

>

> Wiliam and his co-researchers found that groups of eight to 10

> teachers who meet once a month for at least two years can be most

> effective. "It takes time to change teachers' ways of working,

> particularly if they have been in the classroom for many years," said

> Wiliam. "Simply telling teachers what to do doesn't work."

>

> "For example, most teachers have heard about research from the 1980s

> which shows that if they wait three to five seconds after asking a

> question their pupils' performance improves because they have been

> given some time to think.

>

> "Even so, many teachers are still allowing less than a second for

> pupils to respond. The conclusion we can draw from that is that

> knowing what to do is the easy part of teaching. Actually doing it is

> what's hard."

>

> Wiliam told EducationGuardian.co.uk that teacher quality was key to

> any improvements.

>

> "To reduce class size from 30 to 20 would need 150,000 more teachers

> and that would dilute the quality of teachers," he said.

>

> "We need to change what teachers do day in day out in the classroom

> and we need to get better teachers into the profession."

>

> Martin Johnson, acting deputy general secretary of the Association of

> Teachers and Lecturers, said the research should encourage the

> government to "put its money where its mouth is".

>

> "Staff need to work together to learn how to teach more effectively,

> but schools will need more resources to do this. [Wiliam] reminds us

> that this would be very cost-effective.

>

> "Schools have benefited hugely over the last decade from having more

> classroom based staff but much more training is needed to make their

> deployment fully effective.

>

> "And while the government says it encourages assessment for learning,

> its testing policies have stolen teachers' self-confidence so new

> training must be provided and resourced.

>

> "School staff desperately need a contractual entitlement to training

> which meets their individual needs."

>

> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited

>

>

>

> David J. Rosen

> Special Topics Discussion Moderator

> djrosen at comcast.net

>

>

>

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