Janet, 
By OUR students, I mean our students who are American citizens. In another Florida county with which I have experience,  the bill for educating undocumented students was outstandingly high as was the cost of medical care. I do feel sympathy for the undocumented; however, the costs are out of sight as they are in other parts of the country.
Cheryl


Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:27:07 -0500From: Janet_Isserlis at brown.eduTo: specialtopics at nifl.govSubject: [SpecialTopics 812] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes'not cost effective
CherylCan you say more about what you mean by OUR students?Janet

From: Cheryl Diamond <cheryl_diamond at msn.com>Reply-To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:30:33 -0500To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>Subject: [SpecialTopics 810] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes'not cost effectiveHi, all I read and watched the replies on this issue. Mixed reactions, as a current taxpayer and former teacher, I possess. I am sure that not everyone will accept what I have to say. However, my points should be taken from where they come. Very hard to say that if you reduce class size you have a perfect solution. Some classes should be smaller but not all. You certainly do raise the price on education as no one seems to give up any monies. As a current taxpayer facing unending increases across the board, I  can say "ENOUGH". But as we all know it is not only the teachers' responsiblity. As a former teacher, I saw good and less good teachers. The same goes for parents and admin people.  At least the article on class  size produced comment. As a voter who can see how the class size amendment got adopted, I would say we need to revisit the election with less special interest input. I am disappointed when 1)I don't have clerks who can't figure the exact amount I hand them, or 2)I hear that people haven't been reading  up on the issues or candidates, 3)or readership in a variety of media is down, and finally, 4) listen to high school graduates don't know what EPA means in our government. Yet, a teacher has a very full plate with the extra paperwork, etc., put on him/her. Less government interference and more qualitative parental interest would be tops on my list. There is only so much money for education. It should be spent correctly on OUR students. I am truly aware of the immigration issues and how it has obliterated the budget process. Keep it simple as best we can. Thanks, Cheryl Diamond


From: marie.cora at hotspurpartners.comTo: specialtopics at nifl.govDate: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:42:12 -0500Subject: [SpecialTopics 791] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes'not cost effectiveHi everyone,Great discussion, it’s so full and rich I don’t know where to begin.  My apologies if what I say below has been noted already – But I will second John’s comments re:  Dylan Wiliam.  I think that the Education Guardian article below takes many of his points out of context.  Best to get it from the horse’s mouth I would say:  see Black and Wiliam, Inside the Black Box:   Raising Standards through Classroom Assessment at http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm for starters. I get a ton out of his notion of Assessment FOR Learning versus Assessment OF Learning.Marie CoraNIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderatorhttp://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/discussions.html-----Original Message-----From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of John BensemanSent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 PMTo: specialtopics at nifl.govSubject: [SpecialTopics 779] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes'not cost effectiveI don’t know the specific words that Dylan Wiliam uses about class size, but I am guessing that what he says is that there is no authoritative research that shows that class size is irrefutably related to student learning. This is not to say that class size doesn’t matter, it merely says that the research over many 100s of studies is inconclusive to date.As I am sure that the great majority of people on this listserv will attest, we all feel intuitively that class size DOES matter – it’s just that there is no research to back this conclusion. The jury, so to speak, is still out on this dimension of teaching (as it is in many other areas).The second point re saying that ‘praise hurts students’: I couldn’t find the specific reference, but again interpreting what I think Wiliam would say is something along the lines of: just praising students for the sake of praising does them little good. What is needed however is clear and realistic feedback on where they are at in their learning. If that comes with a dollop of praise, then that’s great, but praise per se is not sufficient.I think that we can fall in to a trap of thinking that learners invariably want/need support (which they do at times), but they also need to be challenged, which means that we need to give them realistic feedback on how they are progressing (or not).Regards, JohnPS I am not a paid servant of Dylan Wiliam, but I am a fan of his research…John Benseman*   john.benseman at criticalinsight.co.nz(   641 9 627 1882  Cell  027 454 0683- 52a Bolton St, Blockhouse Bay, Auckland 0600, NZ



From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce CSent: Wednesday, 27 February 2008 11:29 a.m.To: specialtopics at nifl.govSubject: [SpecialTopics 777] Re: EducationGuardian.co.uk: Smaller classsizes 'not cost effectiveRegarding small class size....Excuse my language, but regarding the comments of regarding class size attributed to Prof Dylan Wiliam, Deputy Director and Professor of Educational Assessment at the Institute of Education, University of London, I say ..."BALDERDASH!!! and HOGWASH!!!!" I can't believe anyone who has been a teacher would ever say "...as long as pupils are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is generally possible with a class of 30." Maybe this was taken out of context. Prof. Wiliam (yes it's only one "L"--I checked.) says some interesting things about formative assessment and personalized learning on this "Learning About Learning" website: http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylanwiliam.aspHe does say a few wacky things--like that praise hurts students. Prof. Wil.i.am. says that formative assessment "encourages teachers to take constant readings about where students are." He says it's important to do this "minute by minute, day by day."  That's why I can't believe this dude really thinks that class size doesn't matter. I think a teacher with 20 students in his/her class can get a better sense of where everyone is than a teacher with 30 students. Sure there may be things we can do that are cheaper than reducing class size...But so what?If that is how we define "cost effectiveness" why not TRIPLE class size and save tons of money? You get my point, right? from Bruce CarmelProf Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of the Institute of Education says, <http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/learningaboutlearning/aboutlal/biogs/biogdylanwiliam.asp>  "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net> wrote:
Colleagues,Tom Sticht spotted this on the EducationGuardian.co.uk site and sent it for our formative assessment discussion.-------Note from Tom Sticht:This article about formative assessment appears in todays (2/25/08 Education Guardian online.-------To see this story with its related links on the EducationGuardian.co.uk site, go to http://education.guardian.co.ukSmaller class sizes 'not cost effective'Anthea LipsettMonday February 25 2008The GuardianReducing school class sizes in an attempt to raise pupil achievement is a waste of money for all but the youngest children, one of the country's leading experts on assessment said today.Cutting class size by 30% gives children the equivalent of four extra months of learning a year, but costs around £20,000 for each class every year, according to Prof Dylan Wiliam, deputy director of the Institute of Education.He said the more effective method of "formative assessment" - where teachers monitor their pupils' progress continuously and provide appropriate feedback - could provide eight extra months of educational development for only £2,000 per classroom per year."It can therefore be 20 times as cost-effective as reducing class size in terms of pupil achievement," he told the annual Chartered London Teachers Conference today."Smaller classes do confer a benefit if pupils are unruly, because fewer pupils in a class means less disruption. But as long as pupils are well-behaved, then what you can do with a class of 20 is generally possible with a class of 30."Smaller classes can also be more cost-effective for five to seven- year-olds, but research suggests the class size needs to be reduced to 15 or less," he said.Wiliam added that investments in information communication technology have also shown a poor return. But international studies have confirmed that formative assessment can double the speed of pupil learning.Some teachers use a "traffic light" system and ask pupils to hold up different coloured cards to show whether they have understood what they have been told. Red means "no", amber means "partly", and green "yes". Pupils are also encouraged to evaluate their own work and advise their classmates on how they can improve.The English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish education departments have all provided varying degrees of backing for formative assessment.After three years of research in both the UK and the US, Wiliam concluded that the approach would only take off properly if teachers work together in school-based groups to refine their classroom methods.Wiliam and his co-researchers found that groups of eight to 10 teachers who meet once a month for at least two years can be most effective. "It takes time to change teachers' ways of working, particularly if they have been in the classroom for many years," said Wiliam. "Simply telling teachers what to do doesn't work.""For example, most teachers have heard about research from the 1980s which shows that if they wait three to five seconds after asking a question their pupils' performance improves because they have been given some time to think."Even so, many teachers are still allowing less than a second for pupils to respond. The conclusion we can draw from that is that knowing what to do is the easy part of teaching. Actually doing it is what's hard."Wiliam told EducationGuardian.co.uk that teacher quality was key to any improvements."To reduce class size from 30 to 20 would need 150,000 more teachers and that would dilute the quality of teachers," he said."We need to change what teachers do day in day out in the classroom and we need to get better teachers into the profession."Martin Johnson, acting deputy general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, said the research should encourage the government to "put its money where its mouth is"."Staff need to work together to learn how to teach more effectively, but schools will need more resources to do this. [Wiliam] reminds us that this would be very cost-effective."Schools have benefited hugely over the last decade from having more classroom based staff but much more training is needed to make their deployment fully effective."And while the government says it encourages assessment for learning, its testing policies have stolen teachers' self-confidence so new training must be provided and resourced."School staff desperately need a contractual entitlement to training which meets their individual needs."Copyright Guardian News and Media LimitedDavid J. RosenSpecial Topics Discussion Moderatordjrosen at comcast.net-------------------------------National Institute for LiteracySpecial Topics mailing listSpecialTopics at nifl.govTo unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopicsEmail delivered to bcarmel at rocketmail.com 



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