One of the wonderful things about these discussions is the opportunity for professionals to share and disagree; and disagree I must.  To me, if the test does not provide a reward and if students must be "bribed" to take it seriously, that's an indication that the test itself is not serious and should not be used.  Weeks every year are wasted in schools all over the nation, in my opinion, on test "pep rallies" and many students who pass the test are unable to explain what they learned, what they know, and how any of the information they regurgitated during the test is relevant to their lives.  
 
Instead of focusing our efforts on the test we should focus our attention on teaching; to that end good content standards and excellent professional development are our best allies.  
 
federico 
 
 
________________________________

From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Rinderknecht, Gail A.
Sent: Thu 06/19/2008 12:22 PM
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
Subject: RE: [SpecialTopics 1010] Re: Content Standards: More questions,more answers, more discussion



You decry the use of rewards, but for kids to take a test seriously, they need a reward.  In regular classes, the reward is a grade.  They often need something tangible to strive for other than the test score.  Standardized tests do not provide a reward for someone who is not internally motivated.  Even if the reward is "real pizza" for lunch instead of the school pizza or passes to the local movie theater, it may be enough to motivate some students to take the test more seriously than they otherwise would have.

Gail 


-----Original Message----- 
From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Federico Salas 
Sent: Thu 6/19/2008 9:02 AM 
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov 
Subject: [SpecialTopics 1010] Re: Content Standards: More questions,more answers, more discussion 
  
To me the obvious problem with rewarding results on the test is that you 
are teaching test taking skills.  Then the standard is determined by the 
test, not by your instructional content standards as determined by 
students and colleagues.  Students may have a phenomenal passing rate on 
the test but be completely unable to actually use their skills and  in a 
practical application at work or as tap their knowledge  base as a 
springboard to learn more at college or the university.  Then programs 
that "offer rewards for improved test scores" have improved test scores 
but have they improved the proficiency of those test takers in their 
ability to succeed in life?  I am afraid not.  That is one of the most 
insidious problems of public education today.  Schools are ranked and 
rewarded on the performance of their students on standardized tests but 
nobody pays attention to whether the students have really learned their 
materials or simply learned to ace a test.  I believe the issue is with 
making the standardized test the focus of education.  If we focused on 
the content standards for instruction instead our success rate would 
over time improve. 

To me, focusing on the test is warranted only when the student has 
obtained sufficient command of the skills and knowledge and a few weeks 
before the test you pay attention to the form of the test, test 
strategies, etc.  But to devote your adult education program to the test 
skills rather than teach with a carefully considered set of academic and 
work related standards is a true disservice to our students. 

You should know I am an avowed enemy of standardized tests; I don't 
understand them, I don't like them, and I don't believe the scores tell 
us much about a student.  I also don't believe we are going to fix any 
of the problems in education if we continue focusing on "the test" 
instead of teaching.  Of course I went through my whole elementary, 
secondary, and a couple of years of university work in two other 
countries without ever once facing a standardized test.  Tests of my 
ability to explain scientific facts, yes; tests of my ability to relate 
knowledge from one field to knowledge from another, yes.  Tests that 
asked me to look for evidence in XX century culture of events that 
happened in the renaissance, yes.  But standardized tests? The first 
standardized test I ever took was the TOEFL to come to this country. But 
that's another story... 

federico 



Federico Salas-Isnardi, Assistant State Director 
Texas LEARNS 
6005 Westview Dr. 
Houston, TX 77055 
Direct: 713-696-0719 
Toll Free: 866-696-4233 
Fax: 713-696-0797 
  
The State Office of Adult Education and Family Literacy 
-----Original Message----- 
From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Rinderknecht, Gail 
A. 
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 7:56 PM 
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov 
Subject: RE: [SpecialTopics 996] Content Standards: More questions, more 
answers,more discussion 

So I knew I shouldn't have started writing in response to this topic 
because I have such strong opinions about the matter.  

Iowa has instituted standards and benchmarks in the public schools and 
tests the daylights out of the students.  Personally, I believe that the 
success of the test often relies on the attitude of the teacher giving 
the test.  I can see this in the high school where I used to teach when 
I volunteer to read high school essays in the summer to evaluate 
reading.  The teachers whom I know emphasize the importance of the test 
have much better results than the teacher who says, "Hey, we have to do 
this.  I don't like it. You don't like it, Your parents don't like it. 
Just do it and get it over with."  Schools that offer rewards for 
improved test scores have improved test scores.  There are many 
variables when doing any kind of standardized testing to "evaluate 
teaching results".  And as far as getting the federal government 
involved in adult literacy, please, no.  Talk to any special education 
teacher ( me included) to find out about the results of federal mandates 
in education.  IEP's went from a simple three or four page document to 
over 12 pages listing standards and benchmarks that were to be worked on 
for each student.  If I had 20 students on my roster, most of whom I 
never saw but for whose educational programs I was still responsible, 
then I had 20 IEP's with massive amounts of bi-monthly or weekly testing 
to determine if progress was being made.  Charts had to be kept up on 
each goal, and I had very little time to teach let alone get to know my 
students.  Several times I introduced myself to a student at his IEP 
meeting because he was not available when I had a planning time.  When 
it got to the point where a graduation goal was deemed inappropriate and 
secondary to meeting the standards and benchmarks, I knew it was time 
for me to get out of special education in a high school. 

But that's beside the point, you might say; however, it isn't because at 
the prison I currently have at least 50 students.  If I had to show 
growth along prescribed standards and benchmarks, then I would be back 
to nothing but paperwork.  Oh, you should know, that I keep a running 
informal individual education plan for each of my men.  I have to for me 
as well as for them; otherwise I would forget who was doing what in 
which book.  

All I'm saying is, about the time you have mandated standards from the 
federal government, then you're going to have to prove that you're 
meeting those standards.  The fact that the men I work with in prison 
pass their tests would have little to do with it.   (Oh, and my 96% 
passing rate probably has something to do with my "captive" audience who 
are clean, well-fed, well-rested and required to be in class.)  I take 
very little credit for their success.  I am there;  they have the GED 
prep workbooks from several different companies.  I give assignments, 
and they work independently and ask questions when they have them.  They 
are in a safe, non-threatening atmosphere which for some of them is a 
first. 

Back to testing.  We TABE all offenders upon arrival to get a general 
reading level.  Then we give CASAS reading and math tests to establish 
deficits.  Every six months each man who has been in education classes 
is required to re-take the CASAS.  When a man completes his GED, the 
State also requires us to CASAS him again.  Usually the poor guy has 
been through the CASAS so many times and is so happy to have his GED 
that he scores his lowest scores on his last CASAS test.  This, of 
course, reflects poorly on me as a teacher.  I can motivate a student to 
complete his GED, but I cannot motivate him to try his hardest on a test 
that essentially means nothing to him.  Oh, and if he is released before 
he has completed his GED, which happens a lot, I have to CASAS him 
before he leaves.  And believe me, a man who is on his way home is not 
likely to try too hard on a test when all he can think about his 
home-cooked meals and the family and friends waiting for him. 

And we were also discussing planning time.  I plan on the run.  I walk 
around the room and look over shoulders and if someone is struggling, 
then perhaps a different book or some one-on-one time is warranted.  I 
might have 50 men to teach, but my room only has chairs for 15, so it's 
a constantly rotating group of guys from noon until 8 pm. Most of the 
men have jobs either within the prison or off-grounds, so I need to be 
there to catch them when they're available.  At the medium security site 
where I work from noon til 3 pm, class times are assigned.  At the 
minimum security site, I maintain a welcome mat approach:  come when 
you're well, willing and able, as long as you find five hours per week 
for class.  Like I said, I have a captive audience. 

Gail Rinderknecht 
GED instructor/ Des Moines Area Community College 
Newton Correctional Facility 
Newton, IA  50208 

And this has nothing to do with the topic, but our site is called 
"Riverview", but with the floods, it's been Lakeview.  We are all fine 
here, but have had to make room for some men where the jails were 
flooded.  The water here in central Iowa is thankfully receding, but 
it's heading downriver towards some of you. 

-----Original Message----- 
From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of David J. Rosen 
Sent: Tue 6/17/2008 8:50 PM 
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov 
Subject: [SpecialTopics 996]  Content Standards: More questions, more 
answers,more discussion 
  
Colleagues, 

Our Content Standards discussion continues through Friday.  I have  
some more questions (see below) for guests and subscribers. I wonder  
if there are some people with questions that they feel are "too  
basic" such as "How do I find out what my state's Content Standards  
are, or if my state even has them?"  No question about content  
standards is too basic. This is the place to ask it. 

I want to hear from teachers and administrators who are (or are not)  
implementing content standards. Jon Engel (Thank you, Jon) spoke for  
teachers who might be skeptical. Perhaps there are some teachers who  
are skeptical that would be willing to speak for themselves now that  
Jon has broached this. 

Here are three more questions that were sent to me, for our guests  
and others : 

"Part-time teachers and planning time:  Teachers tell us that  
developing lesson plans from standards takes more time because they  
have to spend time learning the standards, aligning their activities  
to those standards, and filling out more paper work to demonstrate  
compliance.  What are states implementing standards doing to  
alleviate the pressure on already burdened adult education teachers  
(low wages, low job security, part-time, no benefits, little or no  
prep time, etc.)?" 

"National standards: As a standards writer, I was struck by the wide  
diversity of approaches to adult education content standards across  
states (ranging from the very prescriptive and specific to the very  
broad and general).  While I understand we live in a federal system  
in which states can do whatever they deem best for their students,  
isn't there a value in having a broader national discussion about  
what our adult students should be able to know and do in order to be  
successful members of society or, at a very minimum, shouldn't we  
have a common understanding about how content standards are going to  
be used?" 

"Assessment:  While states have been encouraged to develop widely  
different content standards, the majority continue to use a very  
limited set of approved standardized assessments that may or may not  
be very closely aligned to those standards.  If due to increasingly  
tight financial constraints states are generally unable to develop  
NRS-approved standardized tests that are aligned with their  
standards, is it reasonable to expect that their content standards  
will have an impact on instruction and student performance?  Do  
teachers really have an incentive to teach from those standards if  
what they are teaching is not going to show up in the TABE or BEST  
Plus or CASAS?  Are there plans to develop such tests?" 

David J. Rosen 
Special Topics Discussion Moderator 
djrosen at comcast.net 



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