<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi Dave and all,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I was struck by this phrase from your
first post:</font>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>--I stir the pot by drawing a Venn diagram with numeracy
being a nice big circle and math being a circle smaller than numeracy with
most of math being inside the numeracy circle!</font></tt>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Also this phrase from Mathematics and
Democracy:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3>--Numeracy is not just one among many subjects but an
integral part of all subjects.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3>What if we move from "the pot" to a different
container (say, a frying pan, to be closer to the fire....) and say that
a) mathematics b)reading/writing are two overlapping small circles; that
c)literacy is a circle which encircles [most of] a) and [all of] b); and
that d) numeracy is The Big Kahuna that encircles them all. After all,
Pythagoras said that "everything is number" (...though you may
ask, "Yes, Pythagoras was a mathematician, but was he numerate?")</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3>(And if numeracy were the big circle, yes, Esther, the
pedagogy might need to change...)</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Dave Tout" <davet@cae.edu.au></b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: specialtopics-bounces@nifl.gov</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">09/19/07 07:05 AM</font>
<table border>
<tr valign=top>
<td bgcolor=white>
<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
specialtopics@nifl.gov</font></div></table>
<br>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><specialtopics@nifl.gov></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[SpecialTopics 691] Re: "numeracy"
vs. "mathematical literacy"</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Hi David and all,<br>
<br>
A brief response re the numeracy vs math terminology. I agree learners<br>
often only use and know the term math (or "maths" down under)
and in<br>
some of our curriculum frameworks we specifically call our stream<br>
"numeracy AND mathematics". Which some people find a bit unusual.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
______________________________________________________<br>
Dave Tout, Manager, Educational Quality and Compliance, CAE<br>
NEW Phone: + 61 3 9657 8118 Fax: + 61 3 9657 8155<br>
Mobile: 0418 526 586<br>
Address: Level 3, 267 Collins St., Melbourne<br>
Postal address: CAE, 253 Flinders Lane, Melbourne VIC 3000<br>
______________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: specialtopics-bounces@nifl.gov<br>
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of David J. Rosen<br>
Sent: 19 September 2007 10:58 AM<br>
To: specialtopics@nifl.gov<br>
Subject: [SpecialTopics 687] Re: "numeracy" vs. "mathematical
literacy"<br>
<br>
Lynda, Mary Jane and Myrna,<br>
<br>
Let's look at this question from the perspective of potential adult <br>
learners. I have talked to graduates from adult literacy programs
-- <br>
adult learner leaders -- who object to the term "literacy" because,
<br>
they said, they could read just fine. They needed help, they said,
<br>
with math. They complained that the terms "literacy", or
"reading", <br>
as a name for a program (e.g. "The Literacy Project" "the
Adult <br>
Reading Program" and similar names) obscures that the program offers
<br>
numeracy ("math" as students call this) . One woman said
she went <br>
for years without getting help because she didn't know adult basic <br>
math classes existed in her town, and the program that could help her <br>
was just a few blocks away from where she lived! So although there <br>
may be good reasons for using "numeracy" among practitioners,
let's <br>
hope that "math" appears alongside in the program promotional
<br>
materials so adult learners can find the services they need.<br>
<br>
I am reminded of a discussion that I was in recently about what to <br>
name a new corporate online workplace ESOL program. One of the <br>
seasoned teachers in the room said, it doesn't really matter as long <br>
as the name begins with "English" because that's what the students
<br>
will call it, "English class". And we all agreed.<br>
<br>
I have some more questions about the study:<br>
<br>
7. On Page 27, you write: "The mathematical demands of today's <br>
technological society are different from those of earlier decades. <br>
Some concepts have become more important for coping with the demands <br>
while others are not as critical as they once were." What are the
<br>
concepts that are not as important now, and what concepts are more <br>
important now? (And thanks, Tom Macdonald, for raising the <br>
observations about the relationships of learning technology to <br>
learning numeracy.)<br>
<br>
8. As I read the descriptions of "problem solving" on pages 34-35,
<br>
the process resonates with a process that I believe is used by some <br>
visual artists. A sculptor, for example, has to "organize the <br>
information from the creative problem into a form or model that <br>
enables the artist to "see" the underlying structure of the problem.
<br>
To do that, often sculptors make drawings, look for patterns, and <br>
make models. Has there been research on mathematical or numeracy <br>
problem solving and artistic problem solving and how these thinking <br>
processes might effectively be integrated and strengthen each other <br>
in K-12 schools or adult learning programs? (Thanks, Susan Kidd, for <br>
raising the issue of the relationship of numeracy to the arts.)<br>
<br>
9. At the end of the paper you write about the importance of a <br>
"productive disposition" that is, learners having beliefs in
their <br>
ability to do numeracy and in its usefulness to them, and having <br>
positive feelings about numeracy. Is this, the affective part of this <br>
component, more important than the other components? Does it need
to <br>
be addressed first, or is it addressed through a teaching and <br>
learning process that weaves together all components equally? Can <br>
this weaving process take place for learners who have very negative <br>
feelings about their ability to do numeracy?<br>
<br>
David J. Rosen<br>
Apecial Topics Discussion Leader<br>
djrosen@comcast.net<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sep 18, 2007, at 8:30 PM, Lynda Ginsburg wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi everyone, including the far flung ones!<br>
><br>
> To me, I'm also not sure there's a meaningful difference between<br>
> "numeracy" and "mathematical literacy" because
we can really define <br>
> them<br>
> as we like.<br>
><br>
> But, I see an important political issue here in the US in regards
<br>
> to the<br>
> terminology. A while back there was a policy document called something<br>
> like "From the margins to the mainstream." The primary focus
of the <br>
> policy<br>
> document was literacy, and there was a sentence stating something
<br>
> to the<br>
> effect that math was subsumed under "literacy." (The Adult
Numeracy<br>
> Network actually responded to this document protesting this limited
<br>
> view<br>
> of mathematical learning.)<br>
><br>
> By talking about "mathematical literacy" within the adult
basic ed<br>
> environment, we are using the "L word" and thus continuing
to relegate<br>
> math/numeracy instruction and learning to a second tier level, <br>
> subsumed<br>
> under the literacy umbrella. Since the field here has historically
<br>
> been so<br>
> focused on literacy, there has been limited attention to and <br>
> recognition<br>
> that teaching and learning math is really very different from <br>
> teaching and<br>
> learning reading/writing.<br>
><br>
> Those of you from other countries have somehow managed to elevate<br>
> "numeracy" to a relatively equal status with literacy. We
couldn't<br>
> convince COABE to title their new journal "Adult Literacy and
<br>
> Numeracy,"<br>
> tho the Aussies have one with both words in the title.<br>
><br>
> So, I vote for the term Numeracy rather than Mathematical Literacy.<br>
><br>
> I guess this counts as a rant.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
> Lynda<br>
><br>
> -- <br>
> Lynda Ginsburg<br>
> Senior Research Associate, MetroMath<br>
> Rutgers University<br>
> tel: 732-445-1409<br>
> -------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------------------------<br>
National Institute for Literacy<br>
Special Topics mailing list<br>
SpecialTopics@nifl.gov<br>
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to<br>
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopics<br>
Email delivered to davet@cae.edu.au<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
New experiences. New opportunities.<br>
www.cae.edu.au<br>
<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE PRINTING THIS EMAIL<br>
<br>
NOTICE – this message (and any attachments) may contain privileged and
confidential information intended for the use only of the addressee named
above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you must not
disseminate, copy or take any action in relation to the message. If you
have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender
at the above address and delete all copies of the message.<br>
<br>
This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses.<br>
-------------------------------<br>
National Institute for Literacy<br>
Special Topics mailing list<br>
SpecialTopics@nifl.gov<br>
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/SpecialTopics<br>
Email delivered to tom_macdonald@terc.edu</font></tt>
<br>