Thank you David for engaging my doubts with a well composed discussion. I 
think I will add Gee's book to my summer reading list.

Craig

--------------------------------------
Craig Alinder
info at gaming-pc.net
http://www.refinancequiz.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net>
To: "The Technology and Literacy Discussion List" <technology at nifl.gov>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 3:24 PM
Subject: [Technology 850] Re: The magic of technology for learning isoutside 
the classroom



> Hello Alan and Craig,

>

> On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:39 PM, Gerstle, Alan wrote:

>

>> I believe the technology in education debate has not changed much in

>> 2,000 years. Plato's Seventh Epistle warns against using systems of

>> writing because Plato feared they would lead to the decay of memory.

>> Doesn't each technology provide something and take away something

>> else?

>> And isn't the introduction of a technology into a culture have

>> unintended consequences simply because we cannot foresee the future?

>> How enthusiastic would the developers of the internal engine be if

>> they

>> foresaw that automobile accidents would kill 40,000 Americans each

>> year--chiefly owing to human error?

>>

>> Perhaps if there were a set of 'first principles' about technology,

>> one

>> could begin to address their place in society and education.  Among

>> these would be, I think,

>>

>> 1)  Decide what is worth knowing;

>> 2)  Figure out a way of teaching technological literacy--not only the

>> capabilities of technology as learning tools--but the moral philosophy

>> behind those who encouarge the use of technology.

>> 3)  Understand the motivation of technocrats; simply because someone

>> avers, for example, that video games are 'good for you,' understand

>> the

>> person's concept of good.  The assembly line was 'good' for

>> manufacturers.  Was it good for workers?  Textbooks are good for

>> (many)

>> teachers, and definitely for publishers.  Are they good for students?

>

> I think James Paul Gee would not say that "video games are good for

> you." He might say that some games, well-designed ones, are well-

> designed learning environments.  He might say that some video games

> are good for some people, although I don't recall that he does. He

> has said that there are some learning design principles which apply

> both to well-designed video games and to classrooms.  He has a list

> of these in the appendix of his book, but frankly, most of them only

> make sense after you have "engaged" with the chapters of the book.

>

>> Moral philosophy is of particular significance in a concern raised

>> here

>> regarding a 'well-made' videogame that 'excites and stimulates' vs.

>> poorly designed ones without any 'strategic challenge.'  Al-Quaeda

>> have

>> reprogrammed video games and used them as recruiting tools.  Their

>> objective it is to destroy the American military in virtual reality.

>> Would anyone applaud a well-designed game of that nature?

>

> Gee devotes a thoughtful chapter to this issue and cites an example

> of a game whose content is to teach those of one religion to hate

> those of another.

>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: technology-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:technology-bounces at nifl.gov]

>> On Behalf Of Craig Alinder

>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:44 AM

>> To: The Technology and Literacy Discussion List

>> Subject: [Technology 845] Re: The magic of technology for learning

>> isoutsidethe classroom

>>

>> I use the classic keyboarding software that incorporates games into

>> the

>> learning experience Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing. It basically offers

>> game breaks as rewards to significant progress during the "lessons". I

>> realize this is not exactly what you are referring to when you mention

>> games as a dynamic and challenging experience when designed correctly.

>>

>> Regarding the book by James Paul Gee, I am intrigued and think it is

>> possible that games can be used to gain skills that are relevant in

>> the

>> real world. I checked it out on amazon and found this:

>> http://www.amazon.com/Video-Games-Teach-Learning-Literacy/dp/

>> 1403965382/

>> sr=8-1/qid=1171294424/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-0689205-7632717?

>> ie=UTF8&s=book

>> s

>>

>> It seems that Gee is a serious scholar who is attempting to

>> overturn the

>> notion that video games are bad for children. While I do see the

>> potential for games as a learning tool, I have to say that I see

>> reality

>> as the greatest tool for children to learn how to successfully

>> function

>> in society.

>> They learn to immitate and function as they absorb the particular

>> cultural environ and the challenges therein.

>>

>> Basically my main concern is this: Where do you draw the line

>> between a

>> badly made game that is designed to excite and stimulate without any

>> strategic challenge and a well designed game? How can you tell the

>> difference?

>

> Gee's book addresses this in some detail.  From his study of video

> games and classrooms, he generates learning design principles which

> are evidenced in both well-designed video games and classrooms.

>

>>

>> Craig

>>

>> --------------------------------------

>> Craig Alinder

>> info at gaming-pc.net

>> http://www.refinancequiz.com

>

> It sounds like you might find this book interesting.

>

> David J. Rosen

>

> David J. Rosen

> djrosen at comcast.net

>

>>

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: "David Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net>

>> To: "The Technology and Literacy Discussion List"

>> <technology at nifl.gov>

>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 7:47 AM

>> Subject: [Technology 843] The magic of technology for learning is

>> outsidethe classroom

>>

>>

>>> Marianne, Steve, and others

>>>

>>> There is a magical, compelling learning technology which is almost

>>> never used in the classroom, neither in K-12 or adult education.  It

>>> is widely used at home, however, and in "computer cafes" around the

>>> world , mostly by male "digital natives" under 30.  It is not usually

>>> designed to teach anything that instructors would recognize as basic

>>> skills or academic content, yet it incorporates some principles of

>>> learning that at least one author has argued at length, are far

>>> superior to what is found in most classrooms.  It is capable of

>>> teaching content -- any content -- in ways that are more engaging

>>> than

>>

>>> most classrooms.

>>>

>>> I am referring to well-designed video games, and to the book, _What

>>> Video Games Have to teach Us About Learning and Literacy_ by James

>>> Paul Gee.  According to Gee, good video game designers carefully

>>> create games so that players learn (and improve) strategies in

>>> context, as they go, so that (using Lev Vygotsky's concept) each new

>>> scenario presents the first-person, active learner-players with

>>> challenges that are just outside their "zone of proximal development"

>>

>>> providing difficult challenges, but within reach, and hence highly

>>> motivating.  Gee also argues that many of these games focus on

>>> problem

>>

>>> solving strategies and attitudes, sometimes those that are useful in

>>> the workplace such as getting information from context, getting and

>>> sharing information with co-workers, taking calculated risks, and

>>> working as a team.

>>>

>>> There is at least one (free) computer simulation that incorporates

>>> some of these good game design principles and that also has basic

>>> skills (reading,writing and numeracy) content, The Office, by Mike

>>> Hillinger. See the simulation at:

>>>

>>> http://www.lexiconsys.com/dswmedia/working_simulations.html

>>>

>>> and a description of it at:

>>>

>>> http://www.readingonline.org/electronic/elec_index.asp?

>>> HREF=hillinger/

>>>

>>> I have three questions for those on this list:

>>>

>>> 1. Would you (anyone on this list)  be interested in having a

>>> discussion of James Paul Gee's book,  _What Video Games Have to teach

>>> Us About Learning and Literacy_ , on the Technology discussion list?

>>> 2. Do you know of any other engaging, well-designed video games for

>>> adults or older youth that have adult literacy education skills and

>>> knowledge (including adult secondary education and ESOL) as content?

>>> 3. Do you use computer simulations or video games for learning

>>> purposes in your classroom or learning lab?  If so, which ones, and

>>> how do you use them?

>>>

>>> David J. Rosen

>>> djrosen at comcast.net

>>>

>>>

>>> On Feb 7, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Mariann Fedele wrote:

>>>

>>>> Hello Steve and all,

>>>>

>>>> Steve, you wrote, "staff and students now we seem to ask too much of

>>>> technology, expect it to be like magic."

>>>>

>>>> I think this comment is important to consider when thinking about

>>>> how

>>

>>>> technology relates to the teaching and learning process and

>>>> integrating it in a purposeful way. To begin grappling with that

>>>> question a useful reference source is the report by the National

>>>> Research Council titled "How People Learn: Brain, Mind, Experience,

>>>> and School" (1999). Of course, there have been many advances in the

>>>> technology we use since the time it was published, but many of the

>>>> core findings I believe still hold true.

>>>> What do others on the list think?  How can these recommendations

>>>> inform our practice? Following is an excerpt from the concluding

>>>> chapter.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> LEARNING ENVIRONMENTS

>>>> Tools of Technology

>>>>

>>>>       Technology has become an important instrument in education.

>>>> Computer-based technologies hold great promise both for increasing

>>>> access to knowledge and as a means of promoting learning. The public

>>>> imagination has been captured by the capacity of information

>>>> technologies to centralize and organize large bodies of knowledge;

>>>> people are excited by the prospect of information networks, such as

>>>> the Internet, for linking students around the globe into communities

>>>> of learners.

>>>>

>>>>      There are five ways that technology can be used to help meet

>>>> the

>>

>>>> challenges of establishing effective learning environments:

>>>>

>>>> 1. Bringing real-world problems into classrooms through the use of

>>>> videos, demonstrations, simulations, and Internet connections to

>>>> concrete data and working scientists.

>>>> 2. Providing "scaffolding" support to augment what learners can do

>>>> and reason about on their path to understanding. Scaffolding allows

>>>> learners to participate in complex cognitive performances, such as

>>>> scientific visualization and model-based learning, that is more

>>>> difficult or impossible without technical support.

>>>>

>>>> 3. Increasing opportunities for learners to receive feedback from

>>>> software tutors, teachers, and peers; to engage in reflection on

>>>> their own learning processes; and to receive guidance toward

>>>> progressive revisions that improve their learning and reasoning.

>>>>

>>>> 4. Building local and global communities of teachers,

>>>> administrators,

>>

>>>> students, parents, and other interested learners.

>>>>

>>>> 5. Expanding opportunities for teachers' learning.

>>>>

>>>>      An important function of some of the new technologies is their

>>>> use as tools of representation. Representational thinking is central

>>>> to in-depth understanding and problem representation is one of the

>>>> skills that distinguish subject experts from novices. Many of the

>>>> tools also have the potential to provide multiple contexts and

>>>> opportunities for learning and transfer, for both student-learners

>>>> and teacher-learners.

>>>> Technologies can be used as learning and problem-solving tools to

>>>> promote both independent learning and collaborative networks of

>>>> learners and practitioners.

>>>>

>>>>      The use of new technologies in classrooms, or the use of any

>>>> learning aid for that matter, is never solely a technical matter.

>>>> The

>>

>>>> new electronic technologies, like any other educational resource,

>>>> are

>>

>>>> used in a social environment and are, therefore, mediated by the

>>>> dialogues that students have with each other and the teacher.

>>>>

>>>>      Educational software needs to be developed and implemented with

>>>> a full understanding of the principles of learning and developmental

>>>> psychology. Many new issues arise when one considers how to educate

>>>> teachers to use new technologies effectively: What do they need to

>>>> know about learning processes? What do they need to know about the

>>>> technologies? What kinds of training are most effective for helping

>>>> teachers use high-quality instructional programs? Understanding the

>>>> issues that affect teachers who will be using new technologies is

>>>> just as pressing as questions of the learning potential and

>>>> developmental appropriateness of the technologies for children.

>>>>

>>>> If you want to read the whole chapter it can found at:

>>>> http://books.nap.edu/html/howpeople1/ch10.html

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Mariann Fedele

>>>> Associate Director,

>>>> NYC Regional Adult Education Network

>>>> Literacy Assistance Center

>>>> Moderator,

>>>> NIFL Technology and Literacy Discussion List

>>>> 32 Broadway 10th Floor

>>>> New York, New York 10004

>>>> 212-803-3325

>>>> mariannf at lacnyc.org

>>>> www.lacnyc.org

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> -----Original Message-----

>>>> From: technology-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>> [mailto:technology-bounces at nifl.gov]

>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Quann

>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:41 PM

>>>> To: The Technology and Literacy Discussion List

>>>> Subject: [Technology 833] Re: Changing reading levels of text

>>>> questions

>>>>

>>>> Hi Patti,

>>>> Haven't used this, but I came upon it last week:

>>>> http://www.usingenglish.com/resources/text-statistics.php

>>>>

>>>> Sounds like you already know much of this, but here is a site that

>>>> might help with the creating/editing.

>>>>

>>>> http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/healthliteracy/materials.html

>>>>

>>>> I am finding that even though there are some things that just amaze

>>>> me staff and students now we seem to ask too much of technology

>>>> expect it to be like magic. Others?

>>>>

>>>> Good luck,

>>>> Steve

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>>> "Patti White" <prwhite at MadisonCounty.NET> 2/6/2007 4:21 PM >>>

>>>> I received the following request and I'm stumped.  Here's the

>> request:

>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 

>>>> -

>>>> -

>>>> --

>>>> --------

>>>>

>>>> Do you know of a computer program that takes text and offers

>>>> suggestions for dropping the reading level.. As in maybe 10th grade

>>>> to 5th grade...Is there software that does that other than just

>>>> using

>>

>>>> the Flesch-Kincaid Readability stats and doing it by hand???

>>>>

>>>> Next question..When you are adapting text for folks with literacy

>>>> issues....you know how you drop the reading level down and augment

>>>> with pictures...Is there a term that is used for that ..something

>>>> like .modified text with pictures or something like that...????

>>>>

>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 

>>>> -

>>>> -

>>>> --

>>>> --------

>>>>

>>>> The only thing I can find that might help is the Auto Summarize

>>>> feature in Microsoft Word, but it's not really appropriate.  Does

>>>> anyone know of some software that will drop the reading level of

>>>> text?  And is there a term for that process?

>>>>

>>>> Thanks for whatever help anyone can give, Patti White

>>>>

>>>> Patti White, M.Ed.

>>>> Disabilities Project Manager

>>>> Arkansas Adult Learning Resource Center prwhite at madisoncounty.net

>>>> http://aalrc.org/resources/ld/index.aspx

>>>> 800.569.3539    ph/fax/tty

>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>>> Technology and Literacy mailing list

>>>> Technology at nifl.gov

>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/technology

>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>>> Technology and Literacy mailing list

>>>> Technology at nifl.gov

>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/technology

>>>

>>> David J. Rosen

>>> djrosen at comcast.net

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>> Technology and Literacy mailing list

>>> Technology at nifl.gov

>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/technology

>>>

>>>

>>> --

>>> No virus found in this incoming message.

>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

>>> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.35/680 - Release Date:

>>> 2/10/2007

>>> 9:15 PM

>>>

>>>

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Technology and Literacy mailing list

>> Technology at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/technology

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Technology and Literacy mailing list

>> Technology at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/technology

>

>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Technology and Literacy mailing list

> Technology at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/technology

>

>

> -- 

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 

> 1:23 PM

>

>